Flat Battery!

[ORES]

Gday raiders,

Hows this weather for ya Sydney siders? one day and shining the other

Ive got a very anoying problem that I thought I had licked.

I park my boat in an area where I dont have any access to power these days but plenty of sun.

I had a 4W solar panel pluged in to a cigaretlighter socket conected to the battery and was working well but the thing got obstructed for about 3 weeks and ended up with a flat battery.

A bit of info on the boat:

I dont have an isolator switch and run a quite large acid marine battery with 700amp cranking power I think.

It runs every thing from electrics to a 4 stroke 90.

Also I dont have a regulator either.

Now my Q is:

Is there any other way to keep it topped?

Does the 4W sollar panel need a regulator as its only a very small wattage and is only designed to keep the battery topped up.?

Should I have 2 batteries (then need 2 solar panels?)

Should this battery have an isolator switch and does it really draw that much current eaven though the boats equpment is switched off when the battery is not isolated?

Hope some one could shedsome light on this delemer.

Cheers

[BFB]

Stucatz,

It sounds like you might have a problem with your battery as with everything turned off to battery should not be discharging unless there is a problem.

In regards to the solar panel, as you have said that it has 4 watts of output. This is when it is working to its full capacity and in bright sunlight directly above it. If your battery is capable of producing 700 amps of cranking power it needs at least 8,400 watts of power to deliver that. By simple mathematics this means that if the battery was dead flat you would need 2,100 hours of sunlight to achieve this.

A 4 watt solar panel delivers about 1/3 of amp of current. As you can see the panels do not delivery anywhere near enough charge to bring a battery up to scratch.

The solar panels are good for keeping a battery topped up but are not designed to charge a flat battery.

I hope this helps.

[Dorado 2]

The only reason why I use a solar charger is only to stop the battery from sulphating due to not using it often enough. Your outboard should be keeping the battery in full charge. The only time I have drained my battery is when I put it away and forgot to switch the ignition off!!!, so now I also disconnect one terminal to be sure

Cheers

[ORES]

Stucatz,

It sounds like you might have a problem with your battery as with everything turned off to battery should not be discharging unless there is a problem.

In regards to the solar panel, as you have said that it has 4 watts of output. This is when it is working to its full capacity and in bright sunlight directly above it. If your battery is capable of producing 700 amps of cranking power it needs at least 8,400 watts of power to deliver that. By simple mathematics this means that if the battery was dead flat you would need 2,100 hours of sunlight to achieve this.

A 4 watt solar panel delivers about 1/3 of amp of current. As you can see the panels do not delivery anywhere near enough charge to bring a battery up to scratch.

The solar panels are good for keeping a battery topped up but are not designed to charge a flat battery.

I hope this helps.

Gday BFB,

Thats right, I use the solar panel to keep the battery topped up only, when im not using it or when the boat sits not used for long periods of time .

But how long should a battery stay charged if there where no solar panel there and with out use? Is it normal for a battery conected with nothing on to be flat in 4 months? If i isolated the battery would have it still been ok(charged) in that 4 month period with out use?

Cheers

[pelican]

Solar panels must be the ones that have a diode in them the allow voltage into the battery but not out. If it hasn't got one you can just solder one in. A lot of cheap units ( read not worth the hassle) top up the battery during daylight but at night the exact reverse process occurs at night - ie drains your battery. Many come with such poor wires and also the cigarette socket is so badly connected and a long way from battery barely pass any current to the battery. Removing and replacing battery terminals or having them connected by wingnuts is often an issue stopping current and proper charging resulting in failure of alternators ,relays , tilt trims, computers , burnt out wiring or starter motors . Anderson plugs would be the solution if you didn't want to put in a battery switch and would allow you to safelydisconnect or remove battery to take into garage and charge the day before if you think it needs it on a proper 3 stage charger.

Things I would be doing

Checking battery is actually acepting charge and holding voltage.

Finding if there is any current leakage in the boat. Acessories wired wrong, using hull as return path , wired broken, switches problems engine harness issue, leakage to hull. Common leakage is a maintainance charge required by some stereos to hold and not lose channels but most newer marine ones don't have this issue and it is miniscule anyway.

Do you own a multimeter?. Do you understand or have a mate that knows 12 volt wiring basics? There is a couple of electricians on here that an tell you the multimeter settings of the top of their head.

A bit of info on the boat:

I dont have an isolator switch and run a quite large acid marine battery with 700amp cranking power I think.

It runs every thing from electrics to a 4 stroke 90.

Also I dont have a regulator either.

Now my Q is:

Is there any other way to keep it topped? Remove it ( use anderson plugs as electric connectors) and charge in garage.

Does the 4W sollar panel need a regulator as its only a very small wattage and is only designed to keep the battery topped up.? Yes officially in rreality with such small current and large battery - no. Small cheap solar things are generaly nasty , expensive small solar things are marginally better as they may perform to specs for the short life where ideal condition occur

Should I have 2 batteries (then need 2 solar panels?) Solar panels aren't the answer as batteries should hold charge. You shouldn't need 2 batteries always installed in your boat and the cost and hassle of maintainance . A smaller portable battery pack ( don't go elçheapo) you can use for camping and car etc would be better value and just attach via anderson clips if it is required. Connecting battery wires unless using an isolation switch and / or with accessories ( gps sounders etc) switched off can lead to loads of problems with them getting "spiked"and failing and even bulbs in nav lights regularly failing as it isn't connection.

Check out and test your motor will hand start ( does it still have a pull start) and that you are capable of pulling it without a battery connected or with a dead one - ask the dealer if it an be pull started with a flat, dead, collapsed battery and if leads should be left on. ( that comment will cop some flak )

Does your motor have a computer , does it draw power eve with ignition off - usualy only with a few models of bigger older motors?

Should this battery have an isolator switch and does it really draw that much current eaven though the boats equpment is switched off when the battery is not isolated?

Should be no , I repeat no current draw if all things are off and boat and motor is wired properly ( stereo may be only exception if an older or non manine model or motors computer - not likely in your boat.)

Hope some one could shedsome light on this delemer

Nah sorry I would but my battery is flat!!!! ooops laptop that is. Sorry for format of post but- went to pub in middle of post.

Edited September 7, 2008 by pelican

[ORES]

Solar panels must be the ones that have a diode in them the allow voltage into the battery but not out. If it hasn't got one you can just solder one in. A lot of cheap units ( read not worth the hassle) top up the battery during daylight but at night the exact reverse process occurs at night - ie drains your battery. Many come with such poor wires and also the cigarette socket is so badly connected and a long way from battery barely pass any current to the battery. Removing and replacing battery terminals or having them connected by wingnuts is often an issue stopping current and proper charging resulting in failure of alternators ,relays , tilt trims, computers , burnt out wiring or starter motors . Anderson plugs would be the solution if you didn't want to put in a battery switch and would allow you to safelydisconnect or remove battery to take into garage and charge the day before if you think it needs it on a proper 3 stage charger.

Things I would be doing

Checking battery is actually acepting charge and holding voltage.

Finding if there is any current leakage in the boat. Acessories wired wrong, using hull as return path , wired broken, switches problems engine harness issue, leakage to hull. Common leakage is a maintainance charge required by some stereos to hold and not lose channels but most newer marine ones don't have this issue and it is miniscule anyway.

Do you own a multimeter?. Do you understand or have a mate that knows 12 volt wiring basics? There is a couple of electricians on here that an tell you the multimeter settings of the top of their head.

A bit of info on the boat:

I dont have an isolator switch and run a quite large acid marine battery with 700amp cranking power I think.

It runs every thing from electrics to a 4 stroke 90.

Also I dont have a regulator either.

Now my Q is:

Is there any other way to keep it topped? Remove it ( use anderson plugs as electric connectors) and charge in garage.

Does the 4W sollar panel need a regulator as its only a very small wattage and is only designed to keep the battery topped up.? Yes officially in rreality with such small current and large battery - no. Small cheap solar things are generaly nasty , expensive small solar things are marginally better as they may perform to specs for the short life where ideal condition occur

Should I have 2 batteries (then need 2 solar panels?) Solar panels aren't the answer as batteries should hold charge. You shouldn't need 2 batteries always installed in your boat and the cost and hassle of maintainance . A smaller portable battery pack ( don't go elçheapo) you can use for camping and car etc would be better value and just attach via anderson clips if it is required. Connecting battery wires unless using an isolation switch and / or with accessories ( gps sounders etc) switched off can lead to loads of problems with them getting "spiked"and failing and even bulbs in nav lights regularly failing as it isn't connection.

Check out and test your motor will hand start ( does it still have a pull start) and that you are capable of pulling it without a battery connected or with a dead one - ask the dealer if it an be pull started with a flat, dead, collapsed battery and if leads should be left on. ( that comment will cop some flak )

Does your motor have a computer , does it draw power eve with ignition off - usualy only with a few models of bigger older motors?

Should this battery have an isolator switch and does it really draw that much current eaven though the boats equpment is switched off when the battery is not isolated?

Should be no , I repeat no current draw if all things are off and boat and motor is wired properly ( stereo may be only exception if an older or non manine model or motors computer - not likely in your boat.)

Hope some one could shedsome light on this delemer

Nah sorry I would but my battery is flat!!!! ooops laptop that is. Sorry for format of post but- went to pub in middle of post.

Just got back from the pub and its a hel of a read in my state

Thanks

I think its the stereo now you mentioned it and its a 90hp suzuki 4 stroke 2007 with less than 20hrs bought new, I hope its got a computer

Its the stereo mate. The boat is also a 2007 modle with new wiring.

And the cigaret switch is also the prob.

Cheers

Hope you had a or 50.

[pelican]

I think its the stereo now you mentioned it and its a 90hp suzuki 4 stroke 2007 with less than 20hrs bought new, I hope its got a computer

Hic Hic - just a couple- but just maybe had a few before I went to the pub to sober up - should there be a legal limit to type with my incomprehensible post - .05 hmmmm. ?

Weird a new boat doesn't have a battery switch and a motor that new would have it turn completely off when ignition is off. Stereo wouldnt send battery that big flat in 6 months so you still have another issue.

Get hold of a multimeter ( will take a auto electrician 5 minutes to prove if there is a stray current) and sort it or since it is so new get the bloody dealer to solve it.

I've seen fuel senders , rubbing wires, motor faults, , battery terminals touching hulls , wet rags on battery bilge pumps wired direct ot on a switch all cause probs.

If it is stray current corrosion will become a big issue.

Damm glass is empty see ya.

Pel

[ORES]

I think its the stereo now you mentioned it and its a 90hp suzuki 4 stroke 2007 with less than 20hrs bought new, I hope its got a computer

Hic Hic - just a couple- but just maybe had a few before I went to the pub to sober up - should there be a legal limit to type with my incomprehensible post - .05 hmmmm. ?

Weird a new boat doesn't have a battery switch and a motor that new would have it turn completely off when ignition is off. Stereo wouldnt send battery that big flat in 6 months so you still have another issue.

Get hold of a multimeter ( will take a auto electrician 5 minutes to prove if there is a stray current) and sort it or since it is so new get the bloody dealer to solve it.

I've seen fuel senders , rubbing wires, motor faults, , battery terminals touching hulls , wet rags on battery bilge pumps wired direct ot on a switch all cause probs.

If it is stray current corrosion will become a big issue.

Damm glass is empty see ya.

Pel

Corrosion? can yoube a bit more spesific?

On the terminals?

Cheers

[pelican]

In an Ally boat especially if there is a "stray "current in your boat from your electrical system corrosion can happen really fast (dependant on current loss). Anywhere where dissimilar metal join or even where ally is welded and even sometimes internals on motors. Can show up as blistering of paint and pitting on non painted areas.

The current from your battery is going somewhere as a good battery basically loses very little over time.

Current from battery must be bing used be it , radio, motor , light or a short onto the ally hull. The corrosion occurrs due to this current in the hull that shouldn't be there.

Simple to test with a multimeter by mechanic ,electrician or auto electrician with a multimeter. Sometime harder to find if wiring is hidden or in a harness yadda yadda.

If you have a battery going flat for no reason (ie good battery) it's important to reasonably quickly find the electrical problem and fix it as the corrosion it can cause can occur out of sight under a floor etc etc.

Corrosion on terminals is a poor connection which is not protected by a terminal grease. Happens more on batterys under constant charge.

Edited September 7, 2008 by pelican

[johnno]

Just a quick one

Is the Battery hard against hull as the battery will be drained by sitting on concrete (when charging )

or hard against your hull. This is something you may be missing.

if not it is something draining it for sure.

Even do a test by unplugging stereo/radios

and see if it drains

but using a multimeter will be faster as Pel as said

[miller]

hi mate

as the boys have said above find the problem using a multimeter, then fit an isolator to isolate the battery fully when not in use

i have a twin battery setup in my tinnie one for the motor and one for every thing else and it sits for 6months during winter and starts first time

every time i have never had it go flat in the 2 years its been set up

cheers

miller

[ORES]

hi mate

as the boys have said above find the problem using a multimeter, then fit an isolator to isolate the battery fully when not in use

i have a twin battery setup in my tinnie one for the motor and one for every thing else and it sits for 6months during winter and starts first time

every time i have never had it go flat in the 2 years its been set up

cheers

miller

Thanks miller and all the other raiders,

I think the best way to go is install a isolator switch and also place a piece of marine carpet underthe battery box never the less.

Ill get my fisho/mechanic budy to run the multi.

I am getting a little blistering where Ive conected stainless to ally, is this caused by current then? I thousght it was just the two metals reacting and should have used a paste or sikaflex.

IF its a power leak is that a posative current or is the hull earthed to negative that causes this corrosion?

Thanks

[pelican]

Thanks miller and all the other raiders,

I think the best way to go is install a isolator switch and also place a piece of marine carpet underthe battery box never the less.

Ill get my fisho/mechanic budy to run the multi.

I am getting a little blistering where Ive conected stainless to ally, is this caused by current then? I thousght it was just the two metals reacting and should have used a paste or sikaflex.

IF its a power leak is that a posative current or is the hull earthed to negative that causes this corrosion?

Thanks

Bubbling around fittings of dissimilar metals can be galvanic corrosion. Ie where one metal has a different electrical conductivity and charge to the other and where they meet ( usual) or somewhere / anywhere on the boat the higher reactive metal will corrode - in your case the ally corrodes and bubbles the paint. If there is current from your electrical system in the hull it will speed up this process and possibly create corrosion elsewhere.

Answer is to stop metals touchig either by barriers like plastic inserts or by paste between (yellow in tube sorry brain dead today and can't remember - far too much beer yesterday) The paste both neuralises the surface of both metals and also acts a s a physical barrier. It is used on aircraft and works. Grease lanoline products and anything else that wifes tales tell you that work may for a time till they are washed away or contaminated but then????? Sikaflex and silicones. Look there are many different varieties and they do their job as a sealant but many should never be used on Ally as they have acid cures and a natural PH be it acid or alkaline when cured. Make sure you select teh right one. They act OK as a barrier i some circumstances but there are otyher products designed for that job.

No current should be in your hull. It will hold a natural static charge like every object but thats's it. No current from the battery or from radios should ever enter the hull. Hull should not be used as return path or earth for any purpose in general.

Your mate with a multimeter will quickly be able to termin battery voltage , whether the solar panel is actually putting out a current, and by isolating each accessory on the boat ( do you have a switch panel) approx which circuit the issue lies and trace it back to the problem wire or accessory or motor. Assuming it isn't the battery.

Simply putting an isolater on will solve the possible corrosion problem whenever it is turned off but you possibly have another issue that needs fixing.

Tell us what you find as it will help the next person when chasing a fault

Stuff it still can't remember the name of that stuff and too lazy to walk to the shed. Too many dead brain cells today

[namesay]

Duralac

[pelican]

Duralac

Bingo - Thanks just thought of it and was going to edit my post but you got in first. So stupid as I still have some on my boots from Friday when putting some mast fittings on.

[tuffy]

Duralac

And it comes hermetically sealed for your protection!!

[flatty hunter626]

hey stucatz when i was wiring my boat i spoke in some detail about the isolator switch with rodger from huett marine and he said most of the time they cause more problems than they solve.....i didnt get one on his advice and havent had a flat yet.

cheers flatty hunter