More guides vs less guides for lure casting

[savit]

Hi All,

Just trying to understand how the quantity of the guides in a spin rod would impact the lure casting distance and tangles probability - e.g. 6 guides vs 9 guides similar spin rod?

Also, would be the answer the same or different - for braid and mono line?

Thank you.

[Cargo05]

Although the following You Tube clip is predominately a promo for Lox rods, it explains a little on the Fuji KR revolution guides and the reason for the distance between guides. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXu9vLMT86g

[nickb111]

More guides means more controlled line. Less line slap on the rod blank, and less distance for the line to deviate from a straight path. Theoretically theres more cast distance!

[JohnDory]

MMmm question..

Thread line or overhead

Edited June 26, 2016 by Johndory

[savit]

Johndory - thread line rod.

Cargo05, nickb1111- thank you for responses and video.

I might be wrong, however my theoretical thoughts were: less guides -> less frictions -> more casting distance. As I mentioned this is for metal lures which are relatively heavy and should remove the slack in the line in the beginning of the cast. The remaining half/partially-full reel spool should maintain some tension in the line to avoid line tangles during the end of the cast (when the lure is just falling at low speed).

[outdoordan]

Guides are hard and smooth as buggery. They create alot less friction than line slapping the blank. Also controlled line creates alot less resistance through the air than coiling/unfurling line.

Another benefit is more guides on the tip section mean you can get away with much smaller guides on the tip, reducing tip weight while increasing line control. Creating a lighter more responsive rod.

My latest 10'6 lure rod build, has 13 guides plus tip, consisteing of a 4 guide KL/H reduction train and 9x KT7 running guides. In hind sight i should have gone for KT6's as running guides, as even 7's are more than required. Total rod weight is 276gr (this is including the 32gr i added to the butt to achieve the balance i was after) and the blank remains crisp, responsive and has ultra fast recovery.

Initial testing with this guide set up saw a 42gr slug averaging a measured 105m in a slight cross wind.

In saying this though, its not just about chucking more guides on, its about putting as many guides as required, precisely where they are required to get the line undercontrol as soon as possible. To extract the most out of this concept, it should be built to a particular reel and line combination. I am skeptical about "so called" KR builds on factory rods, as there is alot of "compromise" going on, which will rob you of some of the benefits of this concept.

[savit]

Thank you OutdoorDan. So my understanding now is that more guides in a rod is usually better if the rod is made properly (read - professionally custom-made). Just wondering what reel do you use for your mentioned 10'6 rod and whether you moded it?

Could someone explain why I had sometimes tangles between guides while casting with heavier lures and not with lighter lures - same rod/reel/line?

[outdoordan]

Hi Savit,

The reel is a standard shimano Arc Aero Ci4+ 4000.

When you say tangles between guides, I assume you are talking about guide wraps where the braid (generally only a problem with braid due to its supplness) wraps itself around the guide foot. This is due to the line not being properly maganged and controlled as it tries to flow through the guides.

This can happen within the reduction train (guides which progressively reduce in size and height) and the running guides (usually the same size guide running out to the tip).

This can be due to so many variables. if you can tell me which guide is wrapping, i may be able to offer some ideas as to the cause. But if it is occuring in the running guides it is likely due to too great a spacing between guides, or due to guides which are too large to properly control the line flow (less likely).

The reason it is more prodominent with heavy lures is due to the velocity at which the line is trying to flow through the guides. Poor controlled line can try to "overshoot" the guide rather than run through it due to its own inertia. This overshoot accompanied by wind or rod movement can cause the line to loop around the guide. This was the reasoning between the fuji K guide. It was developed in an effort to shed these loops rather than allowing them to tighten around the guide.

There is some good stuff on you tube on this subject if you are interested.

If you are talking about the braid tying itself into a big knot when casting(what people incorrectly refer to as a wind knot), this is usually due to the line not being spooled under sufficient tension or an overfilled spool. This causes extral loops of line to be dragged off the spool by the unfurling line during the cast. This can also be made worse by line lay pattern and shape of the line on the spool (forward facing taper is more suseptible to casting knots).

Hope this info is what you were after.

Dan

[savit]

Thank you Dan. It's mono line as I need extra abrasiveness for night/rock fishing. Small birdnests (one or several knots in the line tightened by casted lure). Usually between first (largest) and second guides. Spool is not overfilled. I use swivel. I do agree agree that tension quite often is uneven as I do different retrieves for different lures (i.e. not just cast and fast retrieve technique) . However this birdnest issue is for some reason just with heavier lures e.g SP with heavy Jig. What did you find on youtube?

[outdoordan]

On You tube there is alot of info from fuji as well as other companies on guide placement, line control and guide wrap shedding. This is all geared towards braid though.

I do not throw lures on mono. Even for big kings and jew off the rocks i use braid with a long shock leader. So knots occuring in mono is not something i have experienced. Usually this is not so much of an issue due to the stretch provided by mono. When the mono is spooled under some tension the strech factor would normally cause the line to "grasp" the spool, rather than layed upon it.

The two things that i would lean towards are insufficient tension and possibly line twist (but it doesnt sound like thats the issue from what you have discribed). This is very possible when using sp's as it may not be the weight of the lure you cast which is causing the problems, but the retrieval of slack line between "hops".

You can do a bit of a test. Each time you cast, be concious to wind the line back on under tension (by pinching it between your fingers as you wind). Does this reduce the chance of the line knotting?

Mono lines can have alot of different characteristics, Lo stretch, supple or hard/abrasion resistant lines like schnider and moi moi. You could always try changing your line to see if there is any change.

[Guest Guest123456789]

Personally I prefer less guides as it doesn't thrash my FG Knot as much.

[savit]

Thank you OutdoorDan for explanation and suggestion. I will try to do the testing with fingers and check youtube. I use braid for daytime metals casting and no problems with that so far - whether the rod has more or less guides . However for night fishing close to structures/rocks - I would still prefer mono, so I might change rod or mono line and see how it goes. How long is your shock leader and whether the mono/braid knot impacts the casting?