Surf rod & reel compatibility

[Maude]

Hi All, 

I’m Canberra based. In the last couple of years I’ve been doing some surf fishing on the NSW South Coast and have been really enjoying it. I started with a 600 sized Alvey that I pinched from Dad’s shed and bought an Alvey light surf rod to put it on. After a couple of trips I bought a spinning reel (Penn Fierce 3 5000) and a 10’6” Penn Prevail II 5-10kg (cast weight 15-60g) which is loaded with 20lb braid at the recommendation of the local fishing shop guru after telling him I wanted something to use to cast slugs for salmon as well slinging light to moderate baits. I’ve grown tired of the Alvey’s slow retrieval rate and constantly trying to manage line twist. I am thinking of buying another spinning rod - something a bit bigger (maybe around 12ft). My current thoughts were to remove the 5000 reel from the 10’6” rod and put it on said bigger rod and buy a new reel around the 3000 size for the 10’6” and rig it light for slinging light baits for whiting an bream and my 20-30g slugs when the salmon are schooling. I tried a couple of 12-13ft rods in the store with my 5000 but they seem to be very tip heavy. Is it likely that I will find something that balances with my 5000 without spending a fortune ($400+) or do they generally require a larger reel? Considering the largest fish species I will be targeting will be salmon & tailor I don’t see the need for a much larger reel as at this stage I can’t envision having to use much more than 20-30pound mainline. The main consideration for the bigger rod was for getting pilchards out in the strike zone with heavy sinkers (3-4oz) as well as keeping my line nice and high. I’ve been a little hesitant to throw sinkers heavier than about 55g with the 10’6 rod, which means sometimes I’m not quite getting the desired distance but not sure if I’m being too precious. I’m only an amateur so could have this all wrong. Sorry for the word vomit and thanks in advance.

[Isaac Ct]

Hey @Maude, I have used just one rod for many a couple of years of the beach around Sussex Inlet and Cudmirrah. I use a 13ft 6-10kg rod and a 10000 size alivio reel spooled with 20lb mono straight down to the hook. Probably not the most technical but have caught flatties, bream, salmon, tailor and dart of the beach, the rocks at cudmirrah have a rock 'ledge' that juts out for a couple of metres so it can be difficult to land bigger fish and this combo has managed to haul bigger salmon over that. I have also seen spearo's catching blackfish, drummer, bream, trevally and flatties of the rocks. I have heard of some big 80+cm flatties caught on the northern side of cudmirrah beach rught next to the rocks. In terms of sinkers and rigs, I will use a size 2/0 circle hook with just a half pilly and a half hitch around the top of the hook. Cast it out with a size 3 diamond sinker.

Hope the spots and info help.

[Maude]

Hey Isaac, 

Sounds like you’ve worked out exactly what you need. I still think I’d like to have a couple of rods for the beach. I don’t imagine casting slugs for any length of time with a 12+ foot rod would be much fun. My main concern at the moment is whether the 5000 size reel is going to work with a longer rod. The Penn is 19.6oz according to the website so not exactly lightweight for class. The 5000 Saragosa by comparison is only 16oz. 
The few rods I saw in store seemed to be very tip heavy with my 5000 on it so it maybe that I’ll need a larger reel to balance the outfit better.

[slothparade]

I have a spinfisher 950ssm with an aerowave 6-12kg, bit heavy but I enjoy it. The spinfisher is tough as nails and i love it. its also very versitile. 

You could also get away with a 650, 750 or even an 850 ssm if you want to drop the weight down a bit. Personally i don't really take 'nice' reels on the beach, though i do take the slammer. 

Id be recomending if your on a budget and just want a tough setup, spinfisher ssm or VI depending on buget, could go the live liner as well. On a spinfisher rod or a penn allegince or ally rod, prevail or a shimano aerowave or tiapan. Even the battle 3 is a great beach reel. They would be my 3 top pics for reels. 

There is the spinfisher ssm beach combo as well, wish is like $130 or something, which will get the job done and theyre not to bad. 

Edited May 10, 2022 by slothparade

[Green Hornet]

First of all welcome to Raider Maude. I'm sure you'll find plenty of good advice on here no matter what the subject.

Getting a reel to balance with a 12/13.5ft surf rod is a tough ask without adding major weight to the total outfit. Unlike lure fishing, balance isn't as critical when using bait as you're not constantly casting. With rods of this length most guys seem to use a 6/8000 size reel (Shimano size). If you're comfortable with it, I can't see why you couldn't use your 5000 and if funds are tight, you can always buy the rod now and a larger reel further down the track if you feel the need.

Personally, for bait fishing from the beach I much prefer an Alvey to a spin reel. On the correct rod, casting distance is so much better and being able to feel bites with your finger on the line while slowly winding is a huge bonus in the drag and push of the surf. If you were having line twist issues. that's most likely due to you not having a suitable sized swivel above your rig. There's plenty of good info on Alvey's website regarding the correct rigs to suit their reels. Alveys take a little getting used to, but well worth the effort of doing so.

If you ever decide to stick with the Alvey PM me and I can help you out with finding a top quality rod at a modest price.

[Isaac Ct]

1 hour ago, Maude said:

Hey Isaac, 

Sounds like you’ve worked out exactly what you need. I still think I’d like to have a couple of rods for the beach. I don’t imagine casting slugs for any length of time with a 12+ foot rod would be much fun. My main concern at the moment is whether the 5000 size reel is going to work with a longer rod. The Penn is 19.6oz according to the website so not exactly lightweight for class. The 5000 Saragosa by comparison is only 16oz. 
The few rods I saw in store seemed to be very tip heavy with my 5000 on it so it maybe that I’ll need a larger reel to balance the outfit better.

I haven't had trouble casting 30-60g slugs with it. But regarding the other stuff I am probably not the right person to be asking. Much more experienced people aka @Green Hornet @Little_Flatty @Yowie would be your best bets.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Isaac Ct

[Maude]

Thanks to everyone who has responded,  it’s given me a bit to think about. Having used primarily shorter rods previously I guess the bigger surf rods are still a bit alien to me. @Green Hornet I have read plenty of accounts of people preferring the Alvey for surf and that’s why I persisted with it for so long, thinking I’d finally understand what they were talking about. But after getting the spinning reel I just found myself having a much easier and enjoyable time. I read about recommended rigs and ways to reduce twist but always found it to be a bit of a PITA. I think the spoken benefits the Alvey provides are probably a bit lost on me as I’m still only an amateur and probably not identifying the subtleties in bite detection. I also have had great success using gang hooks on a running sinker rig (when targeting tailor and salmon). Correct me if I’m wrong but with an Alvey it is crucial to have a swivel above your tackle so if I use a running sinker the sinker’s travel will be impeded by that swivel. @slothparadethanks for the suggestions, sounds like the way I might be headed. One question regarding the larger reels (8000-10000). If I’m only using 20-30lb mainline would you recommend using a heavy mono backing? I can’t imagine filling the whole spool with braid would be cost effective given the capacity for the 9500ssm in 50lb braid is 700 yards!

[slothparade]

1 minute ago, Maude said:

Thanks to everyone who has responded,  it’s given me a bit to think about. Having used primarily shorter rods previously I guess the bigger surf rods are still a bit alien to me. @Green Hornet I have read plenty of accounts of people preferring the Alvey for surf and that’s why I persisted with it for so long, thinking I’d finally understand what they were talking about. But after getting the spinning reel I just found myself having a much easier and enjoyable time. I read about recommended rigs and ways to reduce twist but always found it to be a bit of a PITA. I think the spoken benefits the Alvey provides are probably a bit lost on me as I’m still only an amateur and probably not identifying the subtleties in bite detection. I also have had great success using gang hooks on a running sinker rig (when targeting tailor and salmon). Correct me if I’m wrong but with an Alvey it is crucial to have a swivel above your tackle so if I use a running sinker the sinker’s travel will be impeded by that swivel. @slothparadethanks for the suggestions, sounds like the way I might be headed. One question regarding the larger reels (8000-10000). If I’m only using 20-30lb mainline would you recommend using a heavy mono backing? I can’t imagine filling the whole spool with braid would be cost effective given the capacity for the 9500ssm in 50lb braid is 700 yards!

Im not a big fan of alveys either. how I handle mine is to use it on a 8ft foot rod and just cast behind the breakers, so short casts. also wanted to add, the battle 2 is also great, I love mine but use it for jigging. 

As for backing and main line, depends on your target and wether you will be using your reel for other things. 50 lbs braid is way to much for bream, whiting ect,but perfect for jewfish, rays, sharks ect. I have spooled mine with a fair wack of braid and quite a bit of mono backing. if you just want to target whiting, breams ect, 20 lbs mono would be what id be going, maybe 20 lbs braid, and yes absolutely chuck a lot of backing on. id say 200-300m of braid would be good. Ive also had great sucess on my royobi reel with 15lbs mono, can't lob big sinkers but it works for what i want. all depends on your target species 

[Little_Flatty]

 @Maude.

Further to the comments here, my gut feel is that a 3000 sized reel might be a bit small for the prevail? That said, Penns do seem bigger than an equivalent sized Shimano or Daiwa, just going off line capacity specs for a given size.

Is there anything wrong with your lure outfit, when used for its specified purpose (casting metals)? If not, I'd leave it alone. I'd say for your rod budget alone ($400), you'd be able to get a fairly reasonable outfit for your pilly throwing. Even a heavier Alvey outfit is feasible.

On the backing question, it is standard practice to use mono backing and then top shot with braid. That said, sometimes if you need the line capacity (e.g. targeting sharks), you'll tend to fill most of your spool with braid.

There's a few south coast beach fishing stalwarts here who will be able to advise further. You've already found one in @Green Hornet. @JonD is another who spends a lot of time on the beach, fishing with his family.

ps. Thanks @Isaac Ct for the endorsement, but beach fishing isn't really my specialty, even though I'd dearly like to do more! One day I will!

[Isaac Ct]

10 minutes ago, Little_Flatty said:

ps. Thanks @Isaac Ct for the endorsement, but beach fishing isn't really my specialty, even though I'd dearly like to do more! One day I will!

There's probably better advice out there than some from a 12 year old.

[Maude]

@Little_Flatty thanks for your input. I quite like the rod but feel the reel and mainline would be better suited on a bigger rod. I tried a 3000 in store (I think it was a shimano) and the balance still seemed fine. Is there a reason people are recommending 20lb mainline for bream and whiting. Having fished for them in estuaries and only using 6/8lb mainline 20 sounds excessive. Perhaps due to the beach conditions. I have no real interest in sharks/rays and mostly target stuff for the pot (whiting,bream, flathead, tailor & salmon). I might give the rocks a crack some day and try and land a black drummer but I’d imagine between the two beach rigs I am envisioning I will have something suitable.

[Green Hornet]

55 minutes ago, Maude said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but with an Alvey it is crucial to have a swivel above your tackle so if I use a running sinker the sinker’s travel will be impeded by that swivel.

With an Alvey on a long rod the best casting technique is to have quite a long drop from the rod tip to the rig. Roughly from the tip to the stripper (lowest) guide on the rod, so you can have a swivel 1 metre or more above your sinker. Unlike in estuaries, fish off the beach rarely muck around with a bait and usually scoff it down, so having 1 metre of free line to feed to a bite is plenty for general beach species.

I should add, if you chose to use a spin reel for baitfishing from the beach, consider loading your reel with a good quality, thin diameter mono rather than braid. If there more than a slight turbulance from wave action or weed floating with the sweep along the beach, braid can tangle horribly.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Green Hornet

[Isaac Ct]

20 minutes ago, Green Hornet said:

I should add, if you chose to use a spin reel for baitfishing from the beach, consider loading your reel with a good quality, thin diameter mono rather than braid. If there more than a slight turbulance from wave action or weed floating with the sweep along the beach, braid can tangle horribly.

I use a spin reel with mono all the way the way through and fish definitely take the bait more and 100% agree that braid wouldn't be good, the waves and weed you are spot on. @Maude the guru for the south coast is most definitely @Green Hornet, he has a wave on knowledge.

[Rebel]

Welcome to Raider.

I do a lot of beach fishing.

I have two rods with 5000 spin reels.

Penn Prevail 2 12'

Abu Garcia 12' 4.0 Veritas. The new one.

Both great reels.

I use Mono line.

[Rebel]

I have 12' Alvey.

I stopped the line twist by using two small swivels.

Cheers.

[Maude]

@Green Hornet interesting info about the drop length, I was unaware. Could be worth giving a go before chucking the towel in on the Alvey. What sort of Alvey do you generally suggest for beach fishing? I know the 6500 models are quite popular and I understand there are drag and non drag models and direct wind (1:1) and geared options. Do you have a preference for one configuration or is it situation dependent? @Rebel what sort of line rating do the rods have and what mono are you using?

[Rebel]

The Veritas is 12 to 20kg  3pce.

The Prevail 2 is 6 to 10kg. 2pce.

I use 12lb Platypus Pretest Mono & sometimes 10lb. on the spin reels

Also Shimano Exage Mono is a good line.

I use a 650b Alvey reel with 10lb line.

I have a 10'6'' Penn Prevail 2 for the rocks with a Penn 4 4500hs reel. I use 20lb Schneider line. Also Penn super X line is good on the rocks.

Cheers.

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Rebel

[Little_Flatty]

2 hours ago, Isaac Ct said:

There's probably better advice out there than some from a 12 year old.

🤣 You have a good sense of humour Isaac!

But you can't argue with your results on the water. Clearly you've been well taught.

  

2 hours ago, Maude said:

@Little_Flatty thanks for your input. I quite like the rod but feel the reel and mainline would be better suited on a bigger rod. I tried a 3000 in store (I think it was a shimano) and the balance still seemed fine. Is there a reason people are recommending 20lb mainline for bream and whiting. Having fished for them in estuaries and only using 6/8lb mainline 20 sounds excessive. Perhaps due to the beach conditions. I have no real interest in sharks/rays and mostly target stuff for the pot (whiting,bream, flathead, tailor & salmon). I might give the rocks a crack some day and try and land a black drummer but I’d imagine between the two beach rigs I am envisioning I will have something suitable.

The only reason I can think of for upsizing the main line is that it increases the versatility of your outfit. For instance, if the surf is big and you need a heavy sinker, then your line will handle it. Or if the bigger tailor or salmon move in, you can put a lure on and chase them comfortably.

I don't do a lot of beach fishing myself, but when I do, I'm chasing whiting. For that purpose, I have a 10-foot 2-5kg carbon rod with a 4000 sized Shimano Sedona. The Sedona is loaded with 15lb braid. I would have gone 10lb, but the tackle shop advised 15lb for the reasons I just mentioned. I still downsize the leader as small as 6lb when I can get away with it.

I love beach fishing, possibly even more than my estuary luring (which is my bread and butter). I aspire to Alvey ownership one day, but at the moment I'm just not at the life stage where I can justify it. Once the kids are fishing-trained and fully water-safe, that might change.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Little_Flatty

[Green Hornet]

@MaudeIve been fishing Alveys off the beach for over 40 years and both my favourite all rounders are the 6.5 inch, Surf Champ 65 and the Stealth 65S.

The Surf Champ 65 is a great salmon and tailor reel. It has no drag and if a fish runs with the line you apply pressure with the palm of your hand to the spool. Its old school, but a fun way to fish, though I wouldn't recommend one unless you have some experience fishing this way.

The Stealth 65S is my big fish reel that comes with a strong, carbontex drag. This reel has been a game changer as its been designed as light as possible and is only marginally heavier than a 6000 size spin reel. Matched with long, light graphite rod I can hold this rig all night without getting a sore arm. This outfit is far from cheap, but worth every cent in my opinion.

If I was starting out and new to Alveys, I'd be looking at either a metal backed 65C or a 65GVCRT. The latter has a graphite backing plate, but is just as strong as metal, a bit lighter and would be my personal choice. Loaded with 500m of 15 or 20lb Platypus Low Stretch line you'll handle anything that swims along the sand within reason.

Although I've never owned one, I've been advised to steer clear of the geared Alveys as their startup inertia is too strong. These reels seem more popular as collectors' items rather than reels to fish with.

Your 600 Alvey is more than capable of handling salmon and tailor and also doubles up as a good reel for bream and whiting. Load it up with 12 or 15lb mono and you're good to go.

[Maude]

Thanks for the info everyone although I almost feel more confused then when I started 😅. Sounds like my Penn 10’6” rod and 5000 reel is in a bit of an awkward middle ground being neither a lightweight setup optimal for bream and whiting nor a longer heavier surf rod that will allow the use of the heavier sinkers sometimes required to get bait a bit further out. Hasn’t prevented me from catching fish mind you. 

[Maude]

@Green Hornet my Alvey is a 600B so has the 1:1 ratio and no drag you spoke of favourably. It currently sits on an Alvey 12ft Light Surf Rod and has been spooled with 10lb mono, which is at the top end of the rods recommended line rating for that rod. This setup seems to have a lot of crossover with the Penn setup which is why I was considering making two beach outfits, one light one moderate. Just trying to work out the best way to go about it. I suppose I could get a heavier rod for the 600B and spool it with 15lb mono as you mentioned and keep the Penn outfit and respool the 5000 with 10lb mono. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by Maude

[Little_Flatty]

40 minutes ago, Maude said:

Thanks for the info everyone although I almost feel more confused then when I started 😅. Sounds like my Penn 10’6” rod and 5000 reel is in a bit of an awkward middle ground being neither a lightweight setup optimal for bream and whiting nor a longer heavier surf rod that will allow the use of the heavier sinkers sometimes required to get bait a bit further out. Hasn’t prevented me from catching fish mind you. 

@Maude, don't write off your Penn outfit just yet. It certainly has done good by you, as evidenced by your catch of salmon and tailor.

It sounds like your Alvey outfit will fit the bill for your bream/whiting outfit. There may just be a bit of a learning curve involved. People have been using Alveys since the beginning of time, so surely you'll get the hang of it sooner than later.

All you need now is to buy a heavy outfit to throw bigger sinkers and your pillies. Rather than spend $400 on just a rod, spend it on a complete outfit which will do the job; it still will be higher quality than anything I fish with.

[Maude]

@Little_Flatty Don’t get me wrong I’ve caught quite a few fish on the Alvey. I just found that I seemed to be using a lot of my attention making sure I was laying the line evenly on the retrieve and grabbing the swivel regularly to allow the line to spin. With the spinning reel it was something I never had to worry about and felt like I could focus more on the fishing. Again this may be due to a lack of familiarity. I can imagine this being second nature to a seasoned Alvey user.  Also, I don’t have a $400 rod budget. I was just asking if it was reasonable to expect to find a 12ft rod that would balance ok with my 5000 reel without spending a fortune on some high tech whizz bang carbon fibre stick. I am hoping to utilise what I have already as much as possible as I too cant really justify buying top end gear, especially at my skill level. It seems though that I might be better off leaving my current outfits alone…

Edited May 11, 2022 by Maude

[Green Hornet]

@Maude Your Alvey rod and reel make a good combo and worth sticking with until you get used to it. Sooner or later you'll be laying the line on the reel without even thinking about it and as for needing to take the weight off the line to let the swivel take the twist out, I have never needed to do that. If you use a quality, black crane swivel in size 10 or 8 to suit your 10lb mono your line should untwist while soaking a bait. Don't go for a small ball bearing swivel as they are too easy clogged with sand. You may also be surprised how far you can cast an unweighted pilchard on ganged hooks with this outfit which can be extremely effective when slowly retrieved on salmon, tailor and flathead.

Your 10'6"/5000 Penn combo sounds perfect to keep for casting metals, sinking stickbaits and even poppers when its fairly calm into the gutters and holes. I have a few similar setups suited to 35-50g lures and this is my favourite way to fish a beach these days. By travelling light and staying mobile it is an extremely effective method and half a dozen casts in the one spot will let you know if there's fish there or not. If not, move onto the next spot and try again until you find the fish.

Load your reel with some PE 1.2 0r 1.5 braid, tie on a 15-20lb fluorocarbon or mono leader and you're good to go. Regarding knots, its worth the trouble of learning to tie an FG knot, but if you find this too difficult try a slim beauty. There's plenty of info on these knots found by using Raider's search function. Swapping out the treble hooks on your metals and stickbaits is advisable as well. Not only does it give you a better hold on a fish, it does less damage to their mouth if you plan on releasing them and greatly reduces the chance of burying a hook in your hand.

[Maude]

@Green HornetThanks for sharing your expertise, much appreciated. 

I was following Alvey’s own advice on swivel size, which can be found here: https://alvey.com.au/faq/how-do-i-stop-excessive-line-twist-while-fishing/

They seem to suggest size 12/14 swivels for 10lb line. I could never find size 14 swivels in store so bought the 12s. 
Made the mistake of buying ball bearing swivels early on and soon worked out they were no good for that task. 

Seems like you have had good success with the size 10 & 8 cranes so I will give them a go. 

Most of  my strategy for managing line has been based on this webpage: 

http://www.scac.net.au/UsingAlveyReels.html 
 

But from what you have stated about not needing to relieve the swivel this guide might be a little over complicated.

As for the Penn it is currently spooled with 20lb braid of some variety. I can’t recall what brand and left it to the recommendation of the tackle shop guy. Funnily enough I have about a rod length  of 15lb fluro leader attached to it via a FG knot, which seems to be in line with your recommendations. 

I am yet to land anything with my slugs but will take your advice on switching out the treble hook. Do you have a preferred metal/lure that you like for salmon and tailor?