Boat size for small offshore work

[olpol]

Hi all, I recently purchased a Quintrex 430 escape (which is the same hull as the 2018 fishabout 430). I'm going to mainly use it in Sydney harbour, but was wondering how it would cope on a calm day going up to longreef.. the previous owners lived in Brisbane and took it to Moreton and Stradbroke island with no problems. It has an epirb and is in near perfect condition so with myself and two others it should be fine?

 

Cheers

[frankS]

You have answered your own question.

On a calm day it should be fine ! keep an eye on the weather and first sign of consistent whitecaps head back to calmer waters.

Frank

[noelm]

1 hour ago, olpol said:

Hi all, I recently purchased a Quintrex 430 escape (which is the same hull as the 2018 fishabout 430). I'm going to mainly use it in Sydney harbour, but was wondering how it would cope on a calm day going up to longreef.. the previous owners lived in Brisbane and took it to Moreton and Stradbroke island with no problems. It has an epirb and is in near perfect condition so with myself and two others it should be fine?

 

Cheers

Three people is going to be “cosy” in that size boat, but, used sensibly, it will be fine, what size motor is fitted?. Weren't you looking at that Cruisecraft that wasn’t a Cruisecraft?

[frankS]

Just wondering Have you transfered the epirb details over to you ?. And check battery life.

Frank

Edited November 4 by frankS

[olpol]

5 hours ago, noelm said:

Three people is going to be “cosy” in that size boat, but, used sensibly, it will be fine, what size motor is fitted?. Weren't you looking at that Cruisecraft that wasn’t a Cruisecraft?

I inspected the 'cruisecraft' last Sunday. It was an absolute bomb, with rot in the floor, and the trailer was a hack job. The engine wouldn't crank either even with a jump to the car. I found out the brand though - it was a 'Serg and Son Pirana'. In the end I found a little bit more money and decided to go for something a little bit safer and bought the Quintrex. Also a better resale value! 

[olpol]

4 hours ago, frankS said:

Just wondering Have you transfered the epirb details over to you ?. And check battery life.

Frank

I haven't yet but will investigate. It's a first boat so all part of the learning curve.

[slowjigger]

Going out from Sydney Harbour to Long Reef is quite a few miles of open ocean so forget about any 'advice' of picking a good day. Weather can be unpredictable, and you won't be able to outrun it if you get caught out. The lack of length and being a lightweight pressed tinny means it won't handle adverse offshore conditions very well at all. PS: does it have power trim and tilt?

Edited November 5 by slowjigger

[olpol]

4 hours ago, slowjigger said:

Going out from Sydney Harbour to Long Reef is quite a few miles of open ocean so forget about any 'advice' of picking a good day. Weather can be unpredictable, and you won't be able to outrun it if you get caught out. The lack of length and being a lightweight pressed tinny means it won't handle adverse offshore conditions very well at all. PS: does it have power trim and tilt?

It has a 40hp mercury 2 stroke with power trim and tilt - it does 30 knots on the flat so should be fine to outrun bad weather? I think the main thing is to check wind, swell, and rain.

[slowjigger]

14 minutes ago, olpol said:

It has a 40hp mercury 2 stroke with power trim and tilt - it does 30 knots on the flat so should be fine to outrun bad weather? I think the main thing is to check wind, swell, and rain.

Forget about 30 knots offshore - you will be lucky to do 10 knots in sloppy conditions. I thought I made myself clear - you can't rely on out running bad weather going that sort of distance offshore. I have been caught out a few times with un-forecast weather changes going similar or shorter distances. But with a 5.4m glass boat things only got rather uncomfortable and not dangerous. PS: trim and tilt helps with the boats attitude to the swells. Use plenty of up trim in a following sea to prevent broaching.  

Edited November 5 by slowjigger

[noelm]

You are not going to “outrun” anything….first off, make sure you keep your eyes open, look for clouds forming, wind picking up, other boats heading in! A 4.3m boat, with three people in, will be a lumpy trip in the ocean, and if it comes up bad, take it easy, you will get home, you might be wet and sore, but take your time if it’s choppy/rough. Wind is your enemy, unless the swell is BIG, “normal”  swell is not going to hurt you, wind will turn the water in to a white capped mess in no time, making it very uncomfortable, and if strong enough, dangerous. Take it in steps, learn how to drive the boat before venturing out beyond the Heads…..that said, the Harbour can get pretty interesting at times too, it’s a big place.

Edited November 6 by noelm
Typo

[zmk1962]

Being a new boat owner ... please take everything said above to heart ... let this be your motto:

"Everyone starts with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The objective is to fill your bag with experience before you run out of luck." 

Wind is your enemy. Forecasts are guesses not predictions (and often far from reality). Experience is your friend.

It sounds like the previous owners had lots of experience - with that boat on their waterways. You need to gain experience with your new boat and the waterways that you plan to use it on. 

I made the following two posts just to help folks like you who are just starting out. 

Take it slow - take your time. Keep asking questions as you have done here.

Cheers Zoran

[Steve0]

Before you go out, look for fronts and troughs on BOM synoptic http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/charts/synoptic_col.shtml, (animate to see prediction movement) but always be aware weather prediction is not an exact Science. When I asked, years ago, I was told those lines are hand-drawn.

Interpretation: https://media.bom.gov.au/social/blog/2391/the-art-of-the-chart-how-to-read-a-weather-map/

Storms can roll in incredibly fast. I was fishing a beach once, with about 1km run along a channel and 2km across a wide inlet before the safety of the ramp. We were about 200M from the boat (13'6" tinny with 35HP) when I saw black clouds on the horizon. "Run, I said". By the time we made it to the inlet full throttle, after a couple of minutes diversion to warn others who were in a location where dunes blocked their view, the waves were building along the inlet. I could not see through the screen, so had to put my head above the screen to pick direction. Running fast, the rain hit like needles. Only arriving at the inlet minutes later, the people I warned said waves were too big for them to open the throttle wide.  They had a slow, scary trip into very peaky waves with wind break.

 

[olpol]

2 hours ago, slowjigger said:

Forget about 30 knots offshore - you will be lucky to do 10 knots in sloppy conditions. I thought I made myself clear - you can't rely on out running bad weather going that sort of distance offshore. I have been caught out a few times with un-forecast weather changes going similar or shorter distances. But with a 5.4m glass boat things only got rather uncomfortable and not dangerous. PS: trim and tilt helps with the boats attitude to the swells. Use plenty of up trim in a following sea to prevent broaching.  

 

57 minutes ago, noelm said:

You are going to “outrun” anything….first off, make sure you keep your eyes open, look for clouds forming, wind picking up, other boats heading in! A 4.3m boat, with three people in, will be a lumpy trip in the ocean, and if it comes up bad, take it easy, you will get home, you might be wet and sore, but take your time if it’s choppy/rough. Wind is your enemy, unless the swell is BIG, “normal”  swell is not going to hurt you, wind will turn the water in to a white capped mess in no time, making it very uncomfortable, and if strong enough, dangerous. Take it in steps, learn how to drive the boat before venturing out beyond the Heads…..that said, the Harbour can get pretty interesting at times too, it’s a big place.

 

18 minutes ago, zmk1962 said:

Being a new boat owner ... please take everything said above to heart ... let this be your motto:

"Everyone starts with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The objective is to fill your bag with experience before you run out of luck." 

Wind is your enemy. Forecasts are guesses not predictions (and often far from reality). Experience is your friend.

It sounds like the previous owners had lots of experience - with that boat on their waterways. You need to gain experience with your new boat and the waterways that you plan to use it on. 

I made the following two posts just to help folks like you who are just starting out. 

Take it slow - take your time. Keep asking questions as you have done here.

Cheers Zoran

 

15 minutes ago, Steve0 said:

Before you go out, look for fronts and troughs on BOM synoptic http://www.bom.gov.au/australia/charts/synoptic_col.shtml, (animate to see prediction movement) but always be aware weather prediction is not an exact Science. When I asked, years ago, I was told those lines are hand-drawn.

Interpretation: https://media.bom.gov.au/social/blog/2391/the-art-of-the-chart-how-to-read-a-weather-map/

Storms can roll in incredibly fast. I was fishing a beach once, with about 1km run along a channel and 2km across a wide inlet before the safety of the ramp. We were about 200M from the boat (13'6" tinny with 35HP) when I saw black clouds on the horizon. "Run, I said". By the time we made it to the inlet full throttle, after a couple of minutes diversion to warn others who were in a location where dunes blocked their view, the waves were building along the inlet. I could not see through the screen, so had to put my head above the screen to pick direction. Running fast, the rain hit like needles. Only arriving at the inlet minutes later, the people I warned said waves were too big for them to open the throttle wide.  They had a slow, scary trip into very peaky waves with wind break.

 

Thanks everyone. From what I now understand I think I need to get used to the boat in the harbour before I venture out - and only in good weather! I'll read those articles now Zoran I'm sure they'll be extremely useful.

Cheers

[frankS]

In my first post on this subject I stated to head for calmer waters when you see whitecaps.

This is when you first start out taking the boat outside the heads.

Once you have been out a couple of times and have learnt how the boat handles with different conditions, stay out a little longer, bear with a bit of wind and a few whitecaps and get to know how the boat handles.

As time goes by you will gain confidence and you will be able to drive the boat threw conditions you thought impossible when you first started.

It will take a while before you can handle adverse conditions but it vital that you learn the skills needed to get home safely.

The boat is capable of handling very rough conditions, it's the person behind the wheel that makes it safe.

One day you will be glad you stayed a little longer each time and got used to your boat and learnt how to drive it in bad conditions.

One thing I can't stress enough is. Make sure your passengers stay put and don't move about the boat while in unpleasant conditions, you must know how the boat is loaded and don't want the load to move.

And needless to say life jackets are on board for a reason. use them.

Frank

[Robbo from Sydney]

57 minutes ago, zmk1962 said:

Being a new boat owner ... please take everything said above to heart ... let this be your motto:

"Everyone starts with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The objective is to fill your bag with experience before you run out of luck." 

Wind is your enemy. Forecasts are guesses not predictions (and often far from reality). Experience is your friend.

It sounds like the previous owners had lots of experience - with that boat on their waterways. You need to gain experience with your new boat and the waterways that you plan to use it on. 

I made the following two posts just to help folks like you who are just starting out. 

Take it slow - take your time. Keep asking questions as you have done here.

Cheers Zoran

Zoran you are always helpful. Thanks for posting this (again)

[zmk1962]

Perfect advice @frankS ... build experience. 

And further to @noelm's comment you will not outrun anything, and @Steve0's comment about how fast things can change ... if you are 6ft standing in a runabout the visible horizon is approx 5km away. Can you recognise a storm front on the horizon? A storm front traveling at 60km/h will be on you in 5minutes ... 

I always point people to this video taken off BrokenBay (an oldie but a goodie)... it's an extreme event but if you read the comments, the forecast for the day was clear with no warnings, the regular marine radio forecasts during the day were all clear, a storm squall developed south close to Wollongong and the boaties at Broken Bay got a 10min warning from Maritime before it hit ... how far could you get in 10min?

Observe all on board - skipper calm, maintaining control of vessel preventing broaching, crew holding it together but highlighting to skipper dangerous breaks they observe ... EXPERIENCE ...

Cheers Z

[olpol]

12 minutes ago, frankS said:

In my first post on this subject I stated to head for calmer waters when you see whitecaps.

This is when you first start out taking the boat outside the heads.

Once you have been out a couple of times and have learnt how the boat handles with different conditions, stay out a little longer, bear with a bit of wind and a few whitecaps and get to know how the boat handles.

As time goes by you will gain confidence and you will be able to drive the boat threw conditions you thought impossible when you first started.

It will take a while before you can handle adverse conditions but it vital that you learn the skills needed to get home safely.

The boat is capable of handling very rough conditions, it's the person behind the wheel that makes it safe.

One day you will be glad you stayed a little longer each time and got used to your boat and learnt how to drive it in bad conditions.

One thing I can't stress enough is. Make sure your passengers stay put and don't move about the boat while in unpleasant conditions, you must know how the boat is loaded and don't want the load to move.

And needless to say life jackets are on board for a reason. use them.

Frank

That's fantastic advice Frank thankyou. Yes lifejackets are a must offshore and to limit risk I think I'll only have one passenger onboard the first outing.

Cheers

[frankS]

I will also state that sometimes " sometimes " it may be better to stay put and ride the storm out.

It is very rare that a storm will last longer than 20 minutes usually blow over in about 10 minutes or so.

Any storm that will last longer than 20 minutes will have been predicted by the authorities and give plenty of warning.

It is experience that will teach you when to pack up and head in and when to stay put and allow the storm to pass by you.

Whitecaps usually start forming around 15-18 knots so watch wind forecast and if stated above 18 don't go out till you gain experience.

Frank

Edited November 5 by frankS

[riveRecon]

Even with experience, please be aware wind and wave forecasts are averages. Wind gusts can be 40 per cent stronger than the forecast, and stronger still in squalls and thunderstorms. Meaning the breaking waves are much higher and steeper. Maximum waves will also be twice the forecast height. Current against wind direction can create short nasty conditions. Swells from different directions added to wind can create even more extreme conditions. Regardless of experience, an engine failure, an extra 100 liters of water entering the boat, loads shifting, etc will guarantee a capsize when you encounter breaking wave heights a quarter or more the length of your boat. Even smaller if hit side on. We’ve research many incidents and lots of testing by government agencies, finding that these type of things get even the most seasoned boaters into difficulty. Please stay safe.

[Renegade460]

I wouldn't do it, boat is just a bit too small to go to Longy from the harbour unless glassy water is guaranteed.

Keep in mind if going to Longy in summer the prevailing weather is calm in the morning with a Nor Easter building around lunchtime and fairly regularly a southerly buster late afternoon into the evening. Get caught in either a strong nor easter or a southerly buster and a very slow wet and possibly dangerous trip just to get inside the heads. A run out tide and the heads will be a washing machine.

[big Neil]

Most of the advice in this post seems to be pointing out the dangers of going to sea in a vessel that is not suited. If you choose to disregard the guidance of other people who have had experience using all sorts of vessels in open waters, it will be at your own risk. Don't underestimate the problems you could encounter...once you get in trouble, there is no guarantee that you will get out of it.

Be careful, bn

[olpol]

13 hours ago, big Neil said:

Most of the advice in this post seems to be pointing out the dangers of going to sea in a vessel that is not suited. If you choose to disregard the guidance of other people who have had experience using all sorts of vessels in open waters, it will be at your own risk. Don't underestimate the problems you could encounter...once you get in trouble, there is no guarantee that you will get out of it.

Be careful, bn

Thanks Niel. I think it's not so much the vessel but rather the captain that's not suited! From what I've read in the previous chats, with enough experience and nice conditions I don't think going up to long reef would be in any way dangerous - especially with more than one onboard. Having been up to longreef on other occasions (mostly on a 40ft Riviera) Ive seen blokes in 3.8m tinnies and apex hull Quintrex's fishing with no issues. Of course they are extremely experienced but I think that it's a good sign for when I find the right day to head up. There is also a possibility of going with other boats - following that riviera (belonging to my mate) or even just finding another bloke whose heading up. Safety in numbers!

[zmk1962]

46 minutes ago, olpol said:

Thanks Niel. I think it's not so much the vessel but rather the captain that's not suited! From what I've read in the previous chats, with enough experience and nice conditions I don't think going up to long reef would be in any way dangerous - especially with more than one onboard. Having been up to longreef on other occasions (mostly on a 40ft Riviera) Ive seen blokes in 3.8m tinnies and apex hull Quintrex's fishing with no issues. Of course they are extremely experienced but I think that it's a good sign for when I find the right day to head up. There is also a possibility of going with other boats - following that riviera (belonging to my mate) or even just finding another bloke whose heading up. Safety in numbers!

I feel you have the right attitude @olpol. No one on here wants to put a damper on your enjoyment and plans for the water, but we don't want to see you as a statistic either. All us old salts have got here by experimenting, building experience and when on the water being mindful of safety first. I certainly have experienced unplanned events offshore that emptied some of my bag of luck ... from that experience I made all sorts of changes (in routine and boat) and invested in redundancies to minimise that exposure next time.

As a skipper your "safety first" responsibility extends to everyone on board, to your vessel and to all the other vessels, kayakers, sailors, and swimmers around you. On your first few experimental trips, sure take your best crew member, but don't think of safety in numbers by adding more crew, think more of traveling out accompanied by another boat. 

Also if it starts to not look right, or feel right, never be too proud to make the skippers call to pull stumps, or even call a trip off. Helps to have a plan A, B and C should your target destination become suss. 

Stay safe and have fun. Looking forward to your reports.

Cheers Zoran

 

[slowjigger]

1 hour ago, olpol said:

Thanks Niel. I think it's not so much the vessel but rather the captain that's not suited! From what I've read in the previous chats, with enough experience and nice conditions I don't think going up to long reef would be in any way dangerous - especially with more than one onboard. Having been up to longreef on other occasions (mostly on a 40ft Riviera) Ive seen blokes in 3.8m tinnies and apex hull Quintrex's fishing with no issues. Of course they are extremely experienced but I think that it's a good sign for when I find the right day to head up. There is also a possibility of going with other boats - following that riviera (belonging to my mate) or even just finding another bloke whose heading up. Safety in numbers!

It's irrelevant/ misleading that you have seen other unsuitable craft there. Also you don't know where they launched from (might have been nearby). And has been pointed out there is no guarantee of 'nice conditions'.

It looks like you had already made up your mind you will give it a try - at least you have ignored all the advice to the contrary. 

[olpol]

1 hour ago, slowjigger said:

It's irrelevant/ misleading that you have seen other unsuitable craft there. Also you don't know where they launched from (might have been nearby). And has been pointed out there is no guarantee of 'nice conditions'.

It looks like you had already made up your mind you will give it a try - at least you have ignored all the advice to the contrary. 

I'm not sure you've read my previous posts  slowjigger - the input Ive gained from the previous constructive criticism is invaluable to my first outing.. I agree that there's no guarantee of nice conditions, which is why I'm prepared to take every single safety precaution I can. I agree that it can be misleading that other craft are up there and there's the possibility that they have been launched closer, but still believe it's a good indication of the capabilities of my boat. Im sure you will be eagerly awaiting any updates I make (or for all we know it may be my last post.. right?)

PS That last part was a joke, I don't take safety or danger at sea lightly and understand it's a serious topic.

Edited November 7 by olpol