75hp Honda Upgrade To A 90 Or 100hp 4stroke

[nic_ally_king]

Hi all,

katari you got me thinking..

I have a 5.35m allycraft with a 75hp honda 4 (2000/2001 model).. the boats quite light so it's not really too underpowered inshore. But, I take it offshore a bit and with some swell I could definitely do with more power. Plus on a clean day let's face it we all want to go faster!

It's only done about 400-450 hrs and has been meticulously maintained so it runs great! Uses so little fuel it constantly amazes me.

I am toying with the idea of selling it for something bigger. I want a 4 because I love the economy and a DFI would be out of my price range.

I have no idea what my engine is worth, but I was hoping I 'may' be able to buy a used 90hp (or perhaps 100hp yamm) for a similar price to what mine's worth??

Does this sound reasonable?? I would only consider an engine with similar hrs to mine (a little more but not heaps) in great condition....

(anyone in the 'know' know much about how a 4stroke yamm and honda of the same era in that hp range compare??????).

Cheers,

Nic

[seabee113.4]

mate dont even bother with four strokes thier a thing to heavy and slugis of the past upgrade to a direct injection two stroke it wil have better fuel econmoy than a direct injection four stroke better milege faster speeds lower service costs if l was you i would buy a mercury optimax or evinrude etec i prefer the etecs more quiet and only have to service every three years. trust me most people who had a four stroke and gone to an etec or optimax would reconmend them to you over a four stroke check out this video

Edited April 11, 2009 by seabee113.4

[nic_ally_king]

mate dont even bother with four strokes thier a thing to heavy and slugis of the past upgrade to a direct injection two stroke it wil have better fuel econmoy than a direct injection four stroke better milege faster speeds lower service costs if l was you i would buy a mercury optimax or evinrude etec i prefer the etecs more quiet and only have to service every three years. trust me most people who had a four stroke and gone to an etec or optimax would reconmend them to you over a four stroke check out this video

Thanks for your thoughts mate. I agree I think DFI's are awesome - but, I think they're too new. There are still some probs to iron out in these engines. I've owned 4's and personally, I love them. They've become much lighter recently and out of the hole performance is something I can miss out on (with 2's). Plus I don't have the budget for a new or near new engine. 5yrs down the track i'd def check out a etec/optimax.

In regards to that vid, haha yeh i've seen it! No offence, but marketing like that is just pathetic! I'm sure they are good, but that's just a joke of a vid (if the yam is even under full throttle at the start is questionable and of course a 2stroke is gonna kill a 4 down low off the mark AND... the ****** boat is ruined!!!!) Whoever is behind thne making of that video should be shot!!

Thnaks mate

Nic

[Jewhunter]

Mate I would be seriously thinking of an e-tec from Huey @ Huett Marine.

He does great deals for Raiders.

The technology isn't that new any more. They have been around for a few years, ironed out most of the bugs & are a terrific motor.

When you factor in the no servicing for 3 years you will be paying around the same as you would for a 4 stroke.

Give Huey a call anyway, whether you go 4 stroke or not he is full of terrific advice.

Cheers,

Grant.

[Mick]

All the marketing hype aside I would certainly be looking for a second hand merc/mariner opti or etec 90 to replace the honda, they are both very popular models and I'm sure ..there would more than a few that have been traded since BRP released their 115HO.

You may have to throw a bit a cash on top of your honda, but haggling always works, especially if the motor has been sitting around for a while. Neither the opti or etec are that new technology, from memory the etec is about 6 years old now and the opti 17 years. I was watching an old Malcom Douglas show the other night and my wife picked up, that he was using an opti.

Both motors would work great on your boat and as its coming in to winter there isnt a better time to buy. I was always a 4stroke person until I had a bad experience with a 6 month old honda 50 which self destructed, but since that time I have owned either etecs or the current opti and havent a bad word to say about either brand and would never think about going back to a 4. Make a few phone calls you may be surprised what is out there in the second hand market.

Edited April 11, 2009 by Mick

[Flightmanager]

Without weighing in too much to the 2 stroke vs 4 stroke debate , something to consider with the 4 strokes ( partiularly one with a few hundred hours on it ) is the number of moving parts . From memory , the Honda has 126 moving parts in the head alone ( cams , belts , tensioners etc ) . Anything that moves , wears . This could be a consideration when purchasing a used 4 stroke.

4 strokes are very quiet , many owners purchase them for this reason alone . The new Etecs are surprisingly quiet for a 2 stroke , not at all like the old " howlers " we all grew up with !! Fuel economy is very similar between the two , although the "clean " 2 stroke engines actually produce less carbon monoxide than 4 strokes .

Take the time to have a talk with Craig from Huetts Marine , they service all makes of outboard , he would be able to tell you the pros and cons of your proposed motor upgrade. You can be 100% assured that he will give you the right information .

Ross

[seabee113.4]

yer ur right nic ally king the advertising on both etetc and opti is a little bit over done when i first seen the video i was amazed about the tug of war between the etec and yamaha but i think that if you did this yourself in real life the etec will have more pull than the yamaha but wont pull the yamaha back that fast and capsize a boat that quick either. if you look at the mercury website it show results of motors out performing others but in other videos the results show the opposite its all a bit dodgy

Edited April 12, 2009 by seabee113.4

[achjimmy]

Nic All the current crop of motors are very good. If to consider new, You are right to ignore the marketing crap and look at the facts and talk to the dealers. Things like twice as many parts mean nothing if correctly maintained form new. Motor cars have involved from the old overhead valve Holden red motors to the current twin cam motors with 5 times the number of moving parts and the current motors are considerably more reliable and last longer. I think the optimax uses a long belt system that if fails renders the motor useless, I would say belts are a higher cause of failure and faster wearing than a well lubricated camshaft. Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha did not get where they are by making crap motors, neither did Evinrude or Mercury.

As advised talk to Craig at Huetts and any other dealer you trust. I personally like Yamaha products for many reasons I will not go into here, but if I were to replace the motor on my current boat it would be an Etec. Because of the weight saving on my older hull, I like the proven technology (Etec may be newish but the basic Evinrude motor is well proven) and I would trust Craig to do it all right and set my boat up perfectly. Remember it is not just a case of bolting the outboard on, there is motor height, prop choice etc etc.

Good luck

PS as mentioned above be very wary of used outboards and fourstrokes, as you do not know the service history, a poorly maintianed outboard will be a headache, and fourstrokes will cost more if major components need to be replaced, IE a replacement clyinder head for a fourstroke will cost 7-8 times more than one for a twostroke

Edited April 12, 2009 by achjimmy

[nic_ally_king]

Nic All the current crop of motors are very good. If to consider new, You are right to ignore the marketing crap and look at the facts and talk to the dealers. Things like twice as many parts mean nothing if correctly maintained form new. Motor cars have involved from the old overhead valve Holden red motors to the current twin cam motors with 5 times the number of moving parts and the current motors are considerably more reliable and last longer. I think the optimax uses a long belt system that if fails renders the motor useless, I would say belts are a higher cause of failure and faster wearing than a well lubricated camshaft. Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha did not get where they are by making crap motors, neither did Evinrude or Mercury.

As advised talk to Craig at Huetts and any other dealer you trust. I personally like Yamaha products for many reasons I will not go into here, but if I were to replace the motor on my current boat it would be an Etec. Because of the weight saving on my older hull, I like the proven technology (Etec may be newish but the basic Evinrude motor is well proven) and I would trust Craig to do it all right and set my boat up perfectly. Remember it is not just a case of bolting the outboard on, there is motor height, prop choice etc etc.

Good luck

PS as mentioned above be very wary of used outboards and fourstrokes, as you do not know the service history, a poorly maintianed outboard will be a headache, and fourstrokes will cost more if major components need to be replaced, IE a replacement clyinder head for a fourstroke will cost 7-8 times more than one for a twostroke

Thanks for your help guys.

For the record I am a big fan of DFI's I think they're fantastic.. ableit out of my price range for this boat anyway. And, achjimmy, yes I completely agree more parts doesn't always mean more probs. Simplicity in design is great but I think your car motor analogy settles that one. If anything it seems to be the electrical side of things where the cracks start to show. But like a few said, a poorly serviced/looked after 4stroke is bound to be bad news - so I'm on the lookout for a good one and will def get in contact with Huey when i'm back from newcastle in 6wks.

Cheers again guys,

Nic

[a boat]

Hi Nic, if you are wanting to see a marked improvement in performance try and find something like a 115HP 4-Stroke. Most 90HP 4-Strokes are just the big brothers to the 75HP and do not offer any great performance gain. Yamaha are a bit strange in their HP ratings with the 80HP and 100HP, but really are the same engines are offer simialar performance to other brands 75HP/90HP. The only except to this would be a 90HP Johnson/Suzuki 4-Stroke, being the same engine as their 115HP, they go OK for 90HP 4-Strokes and offer better performance than your current 75HP Honda-problem with this will be the weight, but any 115HP 4-Stroke will weigh a fair bit more than your current engine. The weights range from 172kg to 189kg for 115HP 4-strokes and often cancel any HP gain and laos check your hull rating to make sure you are not over weight.

Ideally a DFI 90 or 115HP would be the go and they have been out as long as 4-Strokes, all these clean engines came out in numbers when the US EPA said outboards have been clean and the fact that 2-Strokes have been made as outboards for 100 years from one company I disagree with anyone who claims they are new-no real newer than 4-Stroke outboards. Also the cost of second hand and new 4-Strokes and DI engines are on par and again buying new is ideal and with the offers, service costs and extras you get with one brand buying new is not that bad in terms of price.

If you find and decide on second hand, ideally it would want to be in warranty becasue any brand of 4-Stroke that is out of warranty and has a failure due to mechanical breakage or corrosion can be too costly to fix. At prsent we have a 40HP 4-Stroke in the workshop, no point naming brand because all brands have this problem, and it needs a new cycliner head and the cost of this is worth more than the 6 year old engine is worth.

Cheers,

Huey.

[olitay]

Hi mate, there is quite a lot of hype of new tech 2 stroke engines atm and yes they are great motors, they have there place in the market for sure but go with what you trust.

I have owned many Yammy 4 Strokes and Love them, reliable and great resale value. Never had a major drama with any of them.

I actually came across an old article (about 2004) that had a pic of an old boat with what looked like a new Yammy, the commercial fisherman had racked up 5000 Hrs on this 4 stroke and the motor was running perfect, the article went on to read that 5000hrs is equivalent to 20 years for an average boaties use!. Now thats reliability!

Just make sure you check the history on whatever you buy, and it would be great if it was still in warranty - just in case.

Edited April 14, 2009 by BillyD

[pelican]

Hi Billy I sort of know what you mean about hours but commercial hours are a lot different to everyday hours.Commercial users forget to tell you that their maintainance is tax deductable so no the same cost as to domestic use and they do change the oil , impellers, out regularly, fresh batteries etc and many hours are done at idle and low midrange as the boats they push often have max HP rated motors for the few times they are fully loaded and reach max hull spped over water at midrange so running them flat out wouldn't get them there any faster as they are not propped that way. Commercial users get very good support from local dealers as they are good consistant clients who do a lot for turnover and consumable parts or they simply change brands to someone who will support them and stand behind the product. Powerhead may have done 5000 hours but in some cases it will be 6 gearcases and so on.

Many motors fail due to lack of use and being min HP on a hull so they are constantly stressed to the max. They get moisture in cylinder ,slight surface rust on bores,stale fuel, seals dry ,old oil, wax deposits from fuels , water in gearbox , scale build up, and 100 other things. A motor that is constantly runnng doesn't encounter these issues and they are the things that create wear along with cold starts.

As an example - on the farm we used to run honda pumps just 5hp governed jobs. We used to connect up 44gallon drums of fuel start it and walk away and then come back had a tap for oil drain and tap to put in new oil( from 20l drum), connected up another 44 gal and walked away. That pump lasted thousands and thousands of hours and it literally never cooled down. Same pumps on spray units in the yards that got started and run hard for 10 days every 3 months and then left would only last 4 years before they needed rings ,seals , carby etc at under 500 hours. So not a brand name thing but as usage thing as they were identical. Similar with our gensets , lighting motors. One that ran the house lasted forever but the one that ran the shearing shed and got used twice a year was changed every 5 years. Fresh fuel, oil and constant load running creates only minor wear with no choking on start ups etc.

Be it 4 stroke heads or computers they are going to be worth 60%-100% the value of any 6 year old motor . In a 2 stroke 2 injectors or a computer out of warranty will be the same 60% of value of 2nd hand motor or more to repair. New injected motors be they 2 or 4 stroke are expensive in parts if out of warranty. When 4 strokes go direct injection it will be a nightmare fixing them out of warranrty if it is a head and injector issue and with both 2 and 4 stroke if EPA forces catalyitic converters we will all wish we had a old tech low perfomance motor ( until we get sick of the noise , smell and petrol bill).

Computers on all motors I say should be warrantied for life as it is not something the user can stuff up and they are too expensive to replace and injectors similar should have a cycle rating. Thankfully manufacurers are finally getting serious and offering longer warranties as they are all charging a serious $ for things that should not be disposable with relatively minor failures. As huey would know the motor is worth more for wrecking the gearbox , cowl and tilt trim unit than it is as a going motor- go figure a sparts are so expensive for all brands.

People have to remember the motors changed design because of pollution laws not because they were a better motor in many aspects . These changes have brought with them other benefits newer oils , less smell and so on and ability to produce more HP from less fuel but seriously a lot of it is just marketing to justify the price. We now have VVT on Hondas , superchargers on others, exhausts valves on 2 strokes and with more parts and complication comes repair expense on failure in the future. In a lot of cases for domestic or commercial use a extra 10kg for a bigger sump with extra oil or heavier castings with bigger cooling galleries would in daty to day use make bugger all differencebut the industry is driven by the preformance sections , racing and marketing that difference between brands to try and get your dollars.

There will be good and bad stories with every brand on both failures and longevity but a lot has to do with teh support the dealer offers you when it all goes pear shaped.

Edited April 14, 2009 by pelican