Honda Vs Yamaha

[tuffy]

Raiders, I am considering re-powering Tuffy. I currently run a 40hp Honda and am very pleased with the performance and economy, but recent alterations to the boat have added some weight, so I'm going up to a 50 hp which is the maximum rating for my boat. My dilemma is , which engine do I choose, the new Honda 50 EFI or the Yammie 50 EFI? My experience with Honda is nothing short of excellent, but there are some quite distinct differences between these 2 motors, ie, Honda is 3 cyl & 808cc and Yammie is 4 cyl & 996cc. My question is will the extra capacity of the Yammie provide extra low down grunt? I can't get a torque curve graph from either of these companies, so I am looking for some guidance from the expert Raider panel.

Anyone help?

Cheers, Russ.

[a boat]

Raiders, I am considering re-powering Tuffy. I currently run a 40hp Honda and am very pleased with the performance and economy, but recent alterations to the boat have added some weight, so I'm going up to a 50 hp which is the maximum rating for my boat. My dilemma is , which engine do I choose, the new Honda 50 EFI or the Yammie 50 EFI? My experience with Honda is nothing short of excellent, but there are some quite distinct differences between these 2 motors, ie, Honda is 3 cyl & 808cc and Yammie is 4 cyl & 996cc. My question is will the extra capacity of the Yammie provide extra low down grunt? I can't get a torque curve graph from either of these companies, so I am looking for some guidance from the expert Raider panel.

Anyone help?

Cheers, Russ.

Hi Russ, if I limited myself to those two it would be a hard decesion and I have run both and they offer similar performance, not class leader in terms of grunt but OK. I think a more important factor would be the dealer and the confidence you have in them. Also I imagine the Honda would be dearer, but it does have a longer warranty, albeit hevily based on servicing the engine, but the Yamaha is the same with servicing. All else being equal Yamaha with a bigger cc should outperfrom the Honda in terms of grunt, but then the gearbox ratio can counteract that. Also the fact that the Yamaha is the small brother to the 60HP helps.

You could always get a SST prop of smaller pitch than what you have now on your 40HP and that would be cheaper than a new engine. Also when shopping new, the best engine in the world will always benefit for the performance gains of a SST prop when compared to an alloy prop so you should price the Honda and Yamaha up with the upgrade to SST.

There is a much more powerful engine on the market than both the brands you list, but as with anything if they are your prefered options I would go the Yamaha.

Cheers,

Huey.

[pelican]

The problem you are having is it speed or holeshot or overall erformance. A permatrim may help depending on what you are trying to do and making sure it is now propped right is a definately cheaper option. A simple rework of your existing prop may be even cheaper depending on just how big a dog it has become. Like all outboards and especially those that only produce torque high in the rev range than if you don't let it get there it will be a dog. Go teh cheap set up and prop ideas first and see ow it goes is my thought

Haven't looked at the numbers but the 40hp honda was heavy from memory and a strong motor but I think the new 50hp is a light one in the class. Since weight is an issue I would stick a sandbag at the back of the boat next time you are out and check how the boat sits as it isn't only HP rating but transom weight. Older hulls just don't cope with bloated outboards.

If you troll you might want to find ot true idle speed as have been on a boat recently and at slowest idle it was way way too fast

One of the bass boat mags in the states did a 50hp shootout but I can't find it - 5 different brands I think. Even included a old 2 banger carby as they are cheap. Have a search.

EDIT- It was January issue BWB mag (www.bwbmag.com) I don't have acopy but maybe it is on site or you can just subscribe to that article or just buy the Jan issue. Double check in case I am wrong

Friend just sent copy

There are quite a few things wrong with the way this test was done as I don't think it was a head to head comparison and done on different days etc have sent you a PM with a discussion on it

1956565_50hpShootout_.pdf

Edited May 22, 2009 by pelican

[a boat]

Hi, I get BWB and I agree with Pel, that shoot out has more holes in it than swiss cheese, but it shows that the newer 4-Strokes have improved the grunt out of them, but when some weight with people of extra gear is added I know which engine I would want on the back of my boat. I can only talk from personal experience and having run all brands of 4-Strokes they are all fine outboard but are not the most powerful engine on the marekt. As usual Pel has good ideas about the trolling speed and the effect a Permatrim can have on "out of the hole" performance and also a SST prop would be worth a try.

Cheers,

Huey.

[olitay]

Go the Yammy mate! I had a honda 40 on a bass boat and wasnt a big fan. I dont know as much as some the other guys know about motors but i do know i have never had a drama with my 4 stroke Yammy's!!!!

[tuffy]

Guys, thanks for your feed back. In response to some of your questions ;

Fisrtly, I have a foil on the current engine and works a treat. This is not about hole shot performance nor is it a top speed or trolling issue. I have also been down the track of different props and was not satisfied with the result of a lower pitch on a SS prop I tried, this is simply about the difference in the engine brands. I am looking at weight vs strength/power and the ease of getting the max out of my boat. To repower to a higher HP is like dropping a 6 cylinder motor into a 4 cyl car I guess - the motor won't work as hard. I suppose someone is also going to suggest the E-Tec, so I'll get in first.

comparison weights for the 3 motors:

Honda 50 - 101 kg ( 808 cc)

e-Tec 50 - 109 kg (864 cc)

Yammie 50 - 113 kg ( 996 cc)

There is nothing between these as you can see, but I just happen to be a firm 4 stroke owner and regardless of technology will never go back to a 2 banger. Servicing costs are not an issue as I believe that this is the cheapest part of owning an outboard. Fuel usage is an issue to me and I have been very spoiled with the Honda 40. As you can see from the above specs, the Yammie has the largest capacity, and as Huey said, it is the little brother of the 60 hp, whereas the Honda is the BIG brother of the 40 with the same capacity. I guess what I'm saying in all of this is that I've probably made up my mind to go to the Yammie (price between this & the Honda is about $400 cheaper) although having had over 4years involvement with Honda I do feel a bit guilty changing, but hey, that's show biz.

All I have to do now is to get some interest from someone about buying my Honda 40.

Cheers, Russ.

[johnno]

Tuffy as i have heard before

you can not deny cubic inches

but in saying that weight sometimes can come into it also

101kg for the honda is super lite but with 808cu it is also small

i would probably go the yammie if i had to choose as i think you are set on the 4 strokes motors

over the 2st DI.

have you had a look at the

mercury 4st 112kg 996cu

suzuki 4st 110kg 815cu ( not sure if this is old or new specs)

[a boat]

Guys, thanks for your feed back. In response to some of your questions ;

Fisrtly, I have a foil on the current engine and works a treat. This is not about hole shot performance nor is it a top speed or trolling issue. I have also been down the track of different props and was not satisfied with the result of a lower pitch on a SS prop I tried, this is simply about the difference in the engine brands. I am looking at weight vs strength/power and the ease of getting the max out of my boat. To repower to a higher HP is like dropping a 6 cylinder motor into a 4 cyl car I guess - the motor won't work as hard. I suppose someone is also going to suggest the E-Tec, so I'll get in first.

comparison weights for the 3 motors:

Honda 50 - 101 kg ( 808 cc)

e-Tec 50 - 109 kg (864 cc)

Yammie 50 - 113 kg ( 996 cc)

There is nothing between these as you can see, but I just happen to be a firm 4 stroke owner and regardless of technology will never go back to a 2 banger. Servicing costs are not an issue as I believe that this is the cheapest part of owning an outboard. Fuel usage is an issue to me and I have been very spoiled with the Honda 40. As you can see from the above specs, the Yammie has the largest capacity, and as Huey said, it is the little brother of the 60 hp, whereas the Honda is the BIG brother of the 40 with the same capacity. I guess what I'm saying in all of this is that I've probably made up my mind to go to the Yammie (price between this & the Honda is about $400 cheaper) although having had over 4years involvement with Honda I do feel a bit guilty changing, but hey, that's show biz.

All I have to do now is to get some interest from someone about buying my Honda 40.

Cheers, Russ.

Hi Russ, out of those engine the E-TEC DOES use less fuel, is cleaner and goes better than the other but if you like the Yammie I wish you all the best but make sure you have added SST prop and service costs done by the dealer (to be in warranty). Also I guess you have never run an E-TEC to say you would never go back and mechanically speaking a 2-Stroke of the same cc will always have better grunt than similar cc 4-Stroke. Do yourself a favour too and compare the gearbox sizes, that is where the extra weight is with the brand we recommend.

All in all though mate all are good engines and as I said above I wish you the best which ever way you go but I will PM you a Raider price.

Cheers,

Huey.

[tuffy]

Thanks, Huey, please pm me.

Johnno, mate I had a look at the Suzy and reports are that they are equally as good as the other Jap stuff. However, what I think lets them down is in a) the pricing and the back up here in Aust. given that they are backed up here by Haines Marine whereas Honda & Yammie both have FACTORY representation here in Oz. I think that counts for something.

Good suggestion, though.

Huey, I need to be convinced about the 2 bangers, but I do have an open mind to suggestions and alternative products, so sell me !!

Obviously price has some bearing on this issue.

Russ

[johnno]

Good point tuffy

[glennmreid]

Thanks, Huey, please pm me.

Johnno, mate I had a look at the Suzy and reports are that they are equally as good as the other Jap stuff. However, what I think lets them down is in a) the pricing and the back up here in Aust. given that they are backed up here by Haines Marine whereas Honda & Yammie both have FACTORY representation here in Oz. I think that counts for something.

Good suggestion, though.

Huey, I need to be convinced about the 2 bangers, but I do have an open mind to suggestions and alternative products, so sell me !!

Obviously price has some bearing on this issue.

Russ

Tuffy,

I was like you, a big fan of the 4 strokes. I had a Mercury 60 HP 4 stroke on my boat. Was very happy with the fuel economy and low noise level. There was a downside. The motor was very big and bulky, when fully trimmed up it always used to hit the backboard. Also, the motor really didn't do much until around 4000rpm. The low down torque wasn't there. I wasn't a fan of the 2 strokes, as I was thinking of the old carby types.

After speaking to Huey, I had a 60 HP ETEC put on. My opinion, I couldn't be more happier. The ETEC in terms of fuel economy I found was better, noise wise on par. In terms of performance blows my old 4 stroke away. There is grunt all the way through the RPM range. It is like a pocket rocket now. The DI technology in the ETEC is amazing, and no smoke like the carby 2 strokes. Turn the key, starts always the 1st time.

If I was in your position, I will compare both the ETEC and the 4 stroke, and then make a decision. That way, you will find the best motor for your boat.

[a boat]

Hi Russ, no point comparing a 4-Stroke to an old tech "dirty" 2-Stroke-they are totally different and is like Holden saying compare my brand new car to a Ford of 30 years ago. This is what the 4-Stroke manufacturers want you to do but when you compare "clean" engine to "clean" engine 4-Strokes are good, but they do nothing better than an E-TEC while the E-TEC is a proven 2-Stroke design that has survived 100 years in the marine enviroment and I can show you 30 year old plus engine still running. The other thing is ywith an E-TEc you do not have to sacrifice performance to get fuel economy. Mate, I sent you a price and anytime you like give me a call on 9456-1444 or come up and have a look at why we choose to stock and sell what we do and as mentioned I could start selling any brand tomorrow if I thought they were better and really with no dealer servicing for 3 years my workshop would make me more money selling 4-Strokes.

Cheers,

Huey.

[wrxhoon1]

Tuffy ,

If I was you I would seriously consider a modern 2 stroke E-tec. They are just as economical as a 4 banger, more torque than a 4 banger ( unless the 4 is boosted ) because they fire at every stroke .

A lot less moving parts, nothing on the head so when they sit for a long time less likely to give you hassles.

You don't have any smoke at iddle or underway and heaps of down low power.

I don't have an E-tec , I have a 200 merc opti and I wouldn't go back to either an old school 2 stroke or a 4 stroke.

For a low power engine like you want you can't go past them, I use 1.2 ltrs per hour trolling in mine pushing a 2 ton boat and I get 1 mile per litre at cruising speed of 30 mph.

[stricko4]

Tuffy,

I have a 50 ETEC on my 4.6m runabout. I honestly couldn't be happier. It is very economical, fume free & have bags of power everywhere. I understand your thoughts on liking 4 strokes but don't disregards DI 2 strokes off hand. They are a very viable option.

Paul

[tuffy]

Hmmmmm - the power of persuasion !!! Ok, Ok, I'm thinking.

Maybe I need to see one of these DI 2's in operation on a similar sized boat.

Kingy's, your's is about the same as mine - 4.55 c/console. Where do you usually launch from? Assuming you are Sydney based, that is.

Russ.

[pelican]

With sanctuary cove on at the minute and the market dead all manufacturers may have demo models at a discount that may ease the pain if you ask around .

Was recently in NZ for the Aukland boat show and BRP was doing the 5 year warranty and 1500 rebate. Not sure if it is a boat show thing that was NZ specific or is avaliable to all dealers.

For such a important motor hp range 40-70 I am surprised more magazines haven't done better bling tests and put them on the dtno as well to come up with meaningful date to campare the motors.

The only good news I know in the ones mentioned that I haven't heard that any are dogs or have any more issues than the rest of the different manufacturers range. Some brands seem to go through annodes pretty fast which rings alarm bells but I guess as long as the annode is going it shouldn't be the block.

I guarantee you the weights in the brochures are wrong by some manufactures and some powerheads have a lot of weight well out over the transom.

Be interesting what other info you can find out and to see whether what you buy lives up to the extra HP ie 10hp That's 20% increase . you might expect wonderul things but realistically unless it is woefully underpowered to start with , I might have trouble explaining this but here goes, all that extra HP is in the last 15% of the rev range where they chew juice and very few of us actually run our boats at except to get them on the plane or to ski with if you get what I mean. Yes they do produce 50hp but generally on the plane at 3500-4000 rpm it is probably like 30hp odd. At midrange a 60hp is only going to be a couple of hp better than a 50hp if staying with 4 strokes .

Check the actual rated KW not the cowl rating as with the 10% variation you may find if you are currently on a 40hp that is rated 43hp and you go to a 50 that is rated only 45hp you might not be getting good value.

Personally I couldn't help myself and do a test with a battery and fuel tank moved forward to extend planing length and balance hull and possibly a bigger permatrim ( not crappy foils) if midrange is the issue , check motor height , props, or go on a diet to get the 40hp doing it OK. Some hulls if overloaded or unbalanced will never perform regardless unless you overpower them to hell

As for servicing costs with the nimber of businesses that won't be around next year good mechanics will be at a premium so getting the first 2-3 services in the deal with a larger dealer could be a good idea or get a written fixed price for the first few services. I have seen some realy silly amounts being charged this past summer and original consumable parts seem to be having mysterious price rises a bit too often.

On a boat I have recently helped with my mate was convinced he needed extra HP but after a few hours playing with setup and acouple of props he is happy ( not estatic) with what he has without spending big $ .

Part of the issue with that boat was ethanol fuel he was using. Simply it does not bang in it full ULP has and that was a couple of extra % power along with a better quality oil. Every little bit helped convince him to stick with it as the $ for the extra HP he would actually get is silly

The other way around this to get a possibly spectacularly performing boat since it is a bit bloated is to enquire with the manufacturer about uprating the HP rating. Some do it as they later realise motors are getting lighter and theit hull is an underperformer with lesser HP with gear loaded into them. Check to see if previous or current model of your hull has same HP rating . How doesa 70hp sound???

Also notice some people slightly extending the waterline length and bouyancy with a pair of hull pods on the transom to keep good performance without changing motors. Initially on older boats as they couln't get 4 strokes on the transom due to weight but see some added on current boats due to them being fully decked out and heavy.

Dicko was after a 40hp a short while ago ( not sure of shaft length) so might be worth a PM but yours might be too new for the budget.

Cheers

Edited May 25, 2009 by pelican

[Flightmanager]

+1 for the Etec , I have had mine for nearly 3 years , its just about due for its first service . OK , I have a 75 HP on a 4.3 'glass runabout , but it goes very well . Only money spent on the engine was for 4 litres of XD100 oil. Looking at that side of the equation , 8 litres of oil in 3 years aint too shabby !! Economy is good , 2NM / litre. No smoke , quiet and powerful .

Ross

[pelican]

Hmmmmm - the power of persuasion !!! Ok, Ok, I'm thinking.

Maybe I need to see one of these DI 2's in operation on a similar sized boat.

Kingy's, your's is about the same as mine - 4.55 c/console. Where do you usually launch from? Assuming you are Sydney based, that is.

Russ.

That is a great idea - fish each others boat for a morning and see how each compares in the same conditions.

Take a few bags of sand or water bladder to get the weight sorted a bit

Best way is to try and trial a couple of motors and especially if it is a current model boat and a dealer has a demo boat you can catch a ride in if you can take your boat on the same day to do a exact comparison.

Edited May 25, 2009 by pelican

[pelican]

+1 for the Etec , I have had mine for nearly 3 years , its just about due for its first service . OK , I have a 75 HP on a 4.3 'glass runabout , but it goes very well . Only money spent on the engine was for 4 litres of XD100 oil. Looking at that side of the equation , 8 litres of oil in 3 years aint too shabby !! Economy is good , 2NM / litre. No smoke , quiet and powerful .

Ross

Hi Ross

Most people end up being very happy with new motors as they have advanced and especially if they are comparing it to 15 year old models as it is significant but changing a late model for a late model is a harder decision as it won't be as larger % improvement is the way I see it. Expectation of the owner ( and what the dealer or mates have told him or websites) plays such a large part as well as if you update and expect the same just without any ongoing motor hassle ( ie reliability) and you actually get a better balaced or performing boat of course you are going to be happy.

I have seen people with beaten up old worn props or motors out of tune all of a sudden start enjying boating again after repair just because the motor sounds on song like it should and it performs better than the dog it was.

Props really are a black art and some brands just don't seem to have a good enough selection considering the range of different boats out there.

Tuffy have you actually done the numbers on speed from a gps . revs , gearbox ratio, wot achieved, and worked out your prop slippage at different speeds?

Doing that could point you to a correct deciion as to whether the prop is doing it's job and literally graphs real life a torque , power, performance cuve for your boat. A couple of timed runs accoss the tide on a flat day and a out of the hole time. It would be great if you get that data and then do the same if you splurge on a new motor to see an changes in real life performance in day to day use. I have done it with bikes over the years with so called performance enhacements etc and often it is all noise but you feel like it is better or maybe it is just me and no matter how quick and better hadling it is I can't ride any better- hmmmm ! The dyno of truth is needed. At least you could do it honestly unlike half the magazines or the ones who just print promo dribble.

Edited May 25, 2009 by pelican

[tuffy]

Good on ya, Pel - "Go on a diet". I will have you know that I am a modest 85 kg.- Well I used to be anyway.

Seriously, I have added the 'before" & "after" pics of Tuffy so you all know what I'm talking about.

This whole thing is more about the ease of operation when I have a couple of mates on board with me, rather than anything else, and I feel that with the extra capacity of the Yammie - 996 cc vs 808 cc - along with the added 20% hp rating, will give me what I want. Incidentally, my previous boat , which was a smaller version of Tuffy, ran a 25 hp motor. We did an exercise on that one and put a mates 30 hp on the back and the difference was nothing short of amazing, so that's why I'm considering doing the same thing with Tuffy - bigger boat / bigger motor range, but surely the same principals should apply.

I did run fuel at the front when it was tiller steer, but the console has added more front weight so I have placed fuel at the stern again. She is perfectly balanced in all respects now and the hull is performing as designed, so weight distribution etc is not the issue.

Ross, I hear you mate and thanks for your advice. You are definately an E-Tec convert.

Cheers,

Russ.

[slinkymalinky]

G'day Russ,

I'm not anything like an expert on engines but just wanted to add from another users perspective, a big thumbs up for new generation 2 strokes.

My last boat was powered by a pair of 4 stroke Yamaha 115s and I loved them to death. My new boat has a 75 E-Tec... so direct comparisons on fuel economy etc. is impossible but I'm a massive fan.

At idle my E-Tec is only marginally louder than a comparable 4 stroke... at cruising speed and above it is substantially quieter. No smoke or fumes from either of the motors.

I just had my E-Tec serviced for the first time after 3 years and it still cost me less than 1/3 of the cost of servicing one of my Yamahas (which I had to do about every 6 months).

I've had no mechanical trouble in 3 years apart from a flat battery (the E-Tec can be hand started easily... not bad for a 75hp motor in a pinch) and spark plugs that definitely needed replacing at service time.

Like Flightmanager, I can back up the fuel and oil economy in a general sense. I was worried when I discovered that the HD100 oil my motor is tuned for costs about $70 for 4 litres... except that after 3 years and over 200 hours I've only just opened my 3rd bottle.

Grunt out of the hole is fantastic... but as I said impossible to make a sensible comparison to my last rig.

The best recommendation I can give is that if I bought another boat tomorrow, despite being hugely impressed by my Yamahas, I'd get an E-Tec again in a heart beat.

Cheers, Slinky

[achjimmy]

Tuffy you should look at all your options, the Yams a great especially the 50/4's. But the etec's are impressive as well, the only thing i would say is try a 50 etec out. I would have no hesitation putting a 75/90 etec on my boat especially with Huey as the dealer or there 115 it is a magnificent motor imo. But personally would need to be convinced of the 50/60. The old johno 50 did not impress me, being a 800cc twin cylinder, never seemed smooth to me, they would speed up idle and do all sort of things to help but in the end 800+cc is big for two cylinders especially in pararel form and compared with your Honda may seem harsh.

My 2c

[a boat]

Hi Jim, you can not compare a 50HP E-TEC to a carby 50HP Johno, they are totally different and just what 4-Stroke guys do, they only compare their new engine to an old tech engine in any of their marketting. At least BRP are comparing modern clean engine vs modern clean engine. When I see a comparison of a 4-Stroke they say it uses less fuel, is cleaner and quieter/smoother than a carby engine and as I said earlier it is like one car company comparing their modern car with a 20 year old car-no point and waste of time. You would want to hope that a modern "clean" 4-Stroke is better than a carby 2-Stroke.

I ran a 40HP E-TEC yesterday that we have traded on a 16 foot fibreglass boat that would weigh a fair bit more the Tuffys alloy boat and it did 26 knots on the GPS and cruise comfortably at 4500 doing 19Knt. It started first turn of key, ideling smoothly and quietly and had heaps of grunt to plane the deep vee glass boat well.

Good point and as I have offered Tuffy, before you pay your hard earned cash, go for a run with an I-2 E-TEC and see for yourself and be fair and add SST prop and service costs to any brand of 4-Stroke. Then if HE still prefers a 4-Stroke that is his right and i wish him all the best.

Cheers,

Huey.

My 2c

[toxicfish]

My new rig is fitted with a 4stroke Yamaha 115hp, and I am happy.

But - to be fair, i think i would've been happier with a 115HP E-Tec, i would like the extra torque out of the hole.

We are happy with our Yammy, and the reason the rig still has it is that we could find not HUGE reason to want to go through the pain of repowering the rig prior to pickup (the rig was fitted with the Yamaha, and we would've had to wait for it to be refitted with the e-tec, and probably at some cost no doubt).

In the end, we test drove the rig with the yamaha and are happy since then, but if the E-Tec provided better hole-shot (which they do in my understanding due to extra torque) then i would have been the happiest guy ever to pickup a BMT package...

If i had my choice again, and i was ordering a new BMT, i would be buying an E-Tec (if the dealer knows his E-Tec's) but that's just me.

I'll be honest, i don't care what anyone says, at 4500-6000rpm, the yamaha is not so quiet that you can have an easy conversation on board, so don't buy into all the hype of super-quiet running, and for those that can't hear it idle, they either have a very large rig or need hearing aids, i have never once come close to thinking the yammy was off when it was idle...

I will add though, that unless its 10pm+ the yammy can be flushed in the driveway without waking the whole neighbourhood.. Sure, no-one will like it, but it just sounds like the guy across the road with the toyota corolla and a baby eating exaust fitted to it (you know the ones)

[achjimmy]

Hi Jim, you can not compare a 50HP E-TEC to a carby 50HP Johno, they are totally different and just what 4-Stroke guys do, they only compare their new engine to an old tech engine in any of their marketting. At least BRP are comparing modern clean engine vs modern clean engine. When I see a comparison of a 4-Stroke they say it uses less fuel, is cleaner and quieter/smoother than a carby engine and as I said earlier it is like one car company comparing their modern car with a 20 year old car-no point and waste of time. You would want to hope that a modern "clean" 4-Stroke is better than a carby 2-Stroke.

I ran a 40HP E-TEC yesterday that we have traded on a 16 foot fibreglass boat that would weigh a fair bit more the Tuffys alloy boat and it did 26 knots on the GPS and cruise comfortably at 4500 doing 19Knt. It started first turn of key, ideling smoothly and quietly and had heaps of grunt to plane the deep vee glass boat well.

Good point and as I have offered Tuffy, before you pay your hard earned cash, go for a run with an I-2 E-TEC and see for yourself and be fair and add SST prop and service costs to any brand of 4-Stroke. Then if HE still prefers a 4-Stroke that is his right and i wish him all the best.

Cheers,

Huey.

My 2c

Hi Craig I am not referring to the noise, emmissions or fuel consumption. I am sure that would all be great as per other etecs, just the mechanics of a large capacity two cylinder inline motor firing at 180 degrees. Could not see that being as smooth as the 3 or 4 cylinder motor.

But i reckon he needs to try it for himself, i just wish mine would take the 115, last ear looking at the Bluefin 525's a dealer in QLD had one with a Etec V4115 thing flew did 75km and jumped out the hole like a rocket.