No Wash Zone?

[stan]

What is the correct description of a "no wash zone"? I went past a guy in a kayak the other day who put up more than a fuss as I passed him, however, I didn't think I was making much of a wake.

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Edited May 23, 2009 by stan

[marcel haber]

Mate dont worry about these fools.......they are in a breed of their own.

The ones out fishing are ok but the others just doing it for fittness etc have really a bad attitude to boaties in general.

I always make a habit of giving them space and a friendly wave but hardly get a friendly wave back from them.

The other week my brother and I were almost hit by these rowers who headed strait for us.We had to yell out to them to change direction.

Also it suprises me the amount of rowers and kyakers who feel they are exempt from wearing head lamps or some kind of light in the early hours of the morning.

twin 1

[Geoff]

Stan I have the same concern , sent an E Mail to Maritime a week or so back requesting a definition. They normally reply to mails in a few days. No reply was received.

Resent the mail earlier this week & still awaiting a reply.

Makes you wonder if they have a definitive measure or it is at the discretion of the officer on the day

Geoff

[paddy69]

hey guys,

I thought that a no wash zone was 4 knots. but is was travelling down the Georges a couple of weeks ago behind a Maritime boat in a 8 knot zone and as soon as he got to the No Wash sign he took off like a bat out hell! I though he was on the chase, but no he wasn't so cut a long story short I took off after him and have treated no wash zones as areas where you can travel with care on a plane? which has minimal wash on my baot anyway.

pat

[paddy69]

this is from the maritime hand book

No Wash Signs

“Wash” is the wave effect created by a vessel moving through the water.

No Wash signs are placed in some areas where the wash from a vessel is

likely to cause damage to the foreshore or vessels, or injury or annoyance

to people. Travel at a speed which creates minimal wash when you see

this sign and when near moored or anchored vessels. Look behind you

to check that you are not creating wash and note the effect of your wash

on other boats and the shore. Adjust your speed if necessary. Regardless

of signs, you should not navigate your vessel in such

a way as to produce excessive wash that endangers

other vessels or causes nuisance, as this is an offence

[johnno]

quote below from the maritime site

from page 72

No Wash Signs

“Wash” is the wave effect created by a vessel moving through the water.

No Wash signs are placed in some areas where the wash from a vessel is

likely to cause damage to the foreshore or vessels, or injury or annoyance

to people. Travel at a speed which creates minimal wash when you see

this sign and when near moored or anchored vessels. Look behind you

to check that you are not creating wash and note the effect of your wash

on other boats and the shore. Adjust your speed if necessary. Regardless

of signs, you should not navigate your vessel in such

a way as to produce excessive wash that endangers

other vessels or causes nuisance, as this is an offence.

as i understand it

ie a tinny at speed puts at little wake/water disturbance to possibly have a impact on shore lines or moored boats or wharves etc.

a big cruiser at speed puts of a big wake/wave which can damage shorelines wharves moored boats etc

i go by the rule if there is a white cap or waves that will break on shore i need to slow down or speed up and get onto the plane with minimal water/wave if any coming of the back of my boat the back of my boat.

i past the police in the georges in a no wash zone both of us flat out.

[tide'n'knots]

The way I understand it - if your boat creates less wash by travelling fast than it does by travelling slow then travel fast! I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Pete.

[xtosea]

The way I understand it - if your boat creates less wash by travelling fast than it does by travelling slow then travel fast! I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Pete.

Mate i agree, you can go as fast as you want without making wash on the rocks once your wake hits the rocks. I usually travel at warp speed and by the time my wake hits the rocks, its nothing.

[stan]

Thanks all for your replies.

I think this guy was just having a bad day. I was not creating and waves that would damge the shore or be an issue to moored boats.

Cheers, Stan.

[Trapper Tom]

Stan

Interesting issue really.

Was originally brought in as environmental protection for shoreline erosion with user comfort a mere by product of the law.

Yes alot of the time for smaller boats flat out like a lizard drinking is best.

However has anyone noticed the rivercats (60 tons displacement) on the parra river particularly around homebush and silverwater where there is mud flats. They Cruise very slowly but the pressure wave from bow causes significant washing of the mud flats. And yes the sediments are those containing Dioxin and other nasty contaminants. Each day the area gets washed, more dioxin and sediments into the water and down into sydney harbour she goes. Govt has known for ages and still won't do anything about it.

Not quite on topic but its a pet hate of mine.

Cheers Trapper Tom

[zook2001]

The way I understand it - if your boat creates less wash by travelling fast than it does by travelling slow then travel fast! I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Pete.

That's correct however you still have to obey the speed limit, you should be in and out of neutral if you can't slow down enougth to produce no wash.

[humkyle]

houseboaters are the worst. they get annoyed if a tiny tiny wash gets them. but meh, houseboats are slow n occupants are usually quite old so theres no reprecussions

[pelican]

I'd like a proper definition from the people who enforce it.

I know people have enquired privately before and gt quite lame answers.

Is this something that FR could do on the basis if representing all it's members , actually talk to police , maratime and get in writing the manner in which they are supposed to enfored no wash.

This part where it left open to the officers interpretation is dodgy and changable daily on their mood. What exactly s disturbance? does there have to be a complaint?

I have been warned years ago and my wash ws affecting no one and was not excessive or in a no wash zone and it peeved me , probably just pulled for an inspection and couldn't find anything wrong so threw in the "and watch your wash son" grrrrrrr

[Mick]

The unfortunate thing is there is no definition that is workable. With the thousands of different vessels that use our waterways it is impossible to put one definition to cover all. What causes more wash a sleek speed boat travelling at 40 knots with 15% of its hull in the water causing minimim wash, or a very beamy fishing boat loaded with gear and people with 50% of is hull in the water doing 4 knots and pushing a lot of water and when that wake rolls over, causing a generous amount of wash.

I dont blame the enforcers of the law, as they would be at a loss for a definition the same as we are, only enforcing an opinion of the rule that is given to them by a supervisor or similar.

[pelican]

The unfortunate thing is there is no definition that is workable. With the thousands of different vessels that use our waterways it is impossible to put one definition to cover all. What causes more wash a sleek speed boat travelling at 40 knots with 15% of its hull in the water causing minimim wash, or a very beamy fishing boat loaded with gear and people with 50% of is hull in the water doing 4 knots and pushing a lot of water and when that wake rolls over, causing a generous amount of wash.

I dont blame the enforcers of the law, as they would be at a loss for a definition the same as we are, only enforcing an opinion of the rule that is given to them by a supervisor or similar.

But that's what I am asking . We know the "law" and that is OK. The difficulty is in the enforcement and inconsistancy. I want to know there interpretation of disturbance etc that the supervisors have given the officers as a definition and I don't just mean the old coppers one where if they are a smart arse go them for any small offence to get your authority over the situation back. Years ago the blokes never issued fines except if you were an absolute danger to society or had caused damage - a lot of it was called common sense. Now they have tools in new rules, budgets , dare I say the word quotas so it is only fair they actually tell us the definition and manner in which they are told to enforce the law. Unfortunately the old guys and their well learnt discretion is gradually gone and now you have people who want an authorative job out there. Yes I know a few of them socially and nice blokes but in uniform on a bad day enforcing what their protocols and targets are I wouldn't want to be in the area they are at on a bad day especially when a supevisor is out on their boat for a day.

How do they measure the disturbance to others, does there have to be others there being disturbed, do they have to see damage and so on, is it just their word or in these days of cheap video cameras why don't they do that?.

Like seriously in the same no wash zone when the wind is blowing 40 knots there is a 30cm shore wave that goes for hours or days in every direction so it can't be a damage specific to your boat. You wouldn't have a 6foot punt out in that by choice . If it is another boat you have disturbed was it not seaworth if it's occupants were that disturbed?

No I don't go round doing a big wake and don't like when idiots do either but and on my boat and other and no one knows the answer. Wth 2 tonne of boat on the plane it is a different sort or wake - low and fast travelling as opposed to displacement wake that is large thick and forcefull. Won't even mention the rivercats wake which is under the water until 10 feet of water depth near the shore at which point yu could surf it. They both have a similar force on another object and a lot depends on that object. Frankly some boats shouldn't be in the areas they end up as they don't have very good seakeeping abilities and if it was a Saturday morning they should be aware that they are in a high traffic zone for example around the Spit but from a officers point of view it could be seen that my wake is a disturbance to them. Their dinghy may be perfect on a weekday. Don't know if I am eplaining myself but I find discretion is Ok when used sensibly and I haven't ever been finesd or cautioned but the attitude some young officers have is more jobsworth and officialdom and about ticking boxes than actually making boating better. In the above case I think the officer should warn the dinghy, inexperienced kayaker or rowing scull that their at great risk to them and their vessel and should possibly move them on if they are complaining about being disturbed.

When was the last time they fined a rowing scull or kayaker for being a pain in the bum or an idiot - pretty hard when no license is required and no ID need be carried.

Education works and fines should be a last resort

Edited May 28, 2009 by pelican

[Trapper Tom]

Hey Pelican.

You are definately fired up over this one!!!!!, so before you read on I am not having a go at you at all and I do understand your fustration, this is merely a statment of fact.

Definitions! Not every little thing can be defined by a law.

Unfortunately as with many laws in many different fields there some that are termed "Judgemental".

That is, it is up to whoever the Officer that has the jurisdiction in that law, to make the experienced decision on whether the law has been broken in the individual circumstances of that case, and, then what action should then be taken. You and I can do nothing about that.

Yes it is judge, jury and executioner but that is the world we live in, and yes in judgmental matters most officers in any field of regulation do excersise caution because it is an area that is most likely to come back and bite them.

That will never stop the fellow who got out of the wrong side of the bed that morning nor will it stop the gestapo's of the world.

Just do your best at what you think complies for the individual circumstances of the case and apply a level commonsense approach. Thats all anybody can do in this case.

Cheers

Trapper Tom

[pelican]

Hi Trapper

Yeah I know

I am unlikely to ever be on the wrong side of the law and sick to the rules but from experience in other things discretion is a dangerous thing as they don't teach them how to use it. If they do run a course for the officers ( and they do in a way as their supivisor sets some boundaries) those boundaries should be public. I don't want to get done because every day I do the same speed through a spot and then on day 3 officer says today it is too fast or too much wake.

Good news , well sort of, is with GPS track and history you could actually prove what speed you are doing but still be screwed as the officers judgement was you were disturbing others etc etc. Discretion when it comes to the actual rules and definitions is a joke and a moveable feast but discretion in application is possibly OK if used responsibly

Years ago in the USA they got 20 experienced highway patrol officers to stand on the side of the road, then in a car oncomming etc and estimate how fast a car was going ( pre radar in some states over there) and the results summed it up.

They were crap at accessing speed unless it was extreme.

Their roadside manner training was the tactic to actually bluff people into believing they were speeding and they were trained in that dominate aggressive behavour we all know. The result was immigrants and people with poor english skills got done and educated people didn't. The old eyeball is a very bad measure as it is inconsistant and changable every day and to which brain it is attached.

Knowing that with a broke NSW Govt things like Maritime have to continue to be profitable and also pay dividends etc and that worries me that it will no longer be a service but a business with quotas or will I call it a budget for all types of revenue.

So back to the question

Can you plane a boat through a no wash zone if there is no speed limit or if there ais a speed limit and your boat planes at that speed - go for it or not?

If your boat produces less height of wash at planing speed - go for it?

Can I run my ski boat through a no wash zone at 60mph as it pruduces only a little wake for a very short time as only the prop is in the water?

What about coming off the plane as you enter a no wash zone . My cruiser punches out a 3foot wall of whitewater which will possibly swamp boats in the no wash zone. I wasn't in the zone . Am I still in the shit. An example is the spit if you run parallel to the headlands where the signs are . Wash travels a long way??

We have 30m and 60m rules are they not enough ?

The wakeboard boat that does it regularly just off that point? A boat designed to make wake?

Edited May 28, 2009 by pelican

[Trapper Tom]

Hi Pelican

Thanks for the reply

All I can say mate is do keep in mind that this law is primarly a Environmental law to prevent shoreline/bank erosion everything else is secondary. If ya big cruiser upsets a some other water user, guess what, its the same as on the road ie "Shared Zone".

And if you do get booked, and with a 3 foot wake, make it worthwile, get ya moneys worth and do 3 x 360's around the buggers. Just joking. Ha Ha

Cheers Trapper T

[BFB]

Of course if you really want clarification in this matter the easiest way is to get booked then take it to court. That will give you a definitive answer but until that happens every other answer will be just someones opinion.

In the end it will be the opinion of the officiating officer that will matter. Not good but that's life.

Best is to try to do the right thing.

May be the question should be: "Has anyone ever been booked for created too much wash"?

[Trapper Tom]

Hey BFB

Now you have hit a nail on the head!!!

Very interesting question "Has anybody been booked for creating to much wash?

That would be very interesting to know, also the when where and under what circumstances.

As you raised it, suggest you start a new topic or the moderators.

Reckon there would be some and and replies.

Cheers

Trapper T

[LittleNoah]

As has been said previously in this thread, everyone has their own interpretation of the rule.

I sort of remember talking about this when I done my boat licence course, but that was 12 yrs ago.

My understanding is pretty much exactly what the signs say, NO wash, not minimal wash.

If your in a small tinnie doing 25 knots then you're not making much wash, but you are still making wash.

If you're just idling along with the motor in gear but no revs you're not going to create wash.

As the definition posted up said, it's about not causing a wash that makes the moored boats rock around and waves lapping on the shoreline.

With all that in mind I would suggest judging each case individually.

My 2 cents worth.

[deano2233]

it says on the signs in the georges (idle speed)