Lure vs Bait

[Jay88]

Good Evening fellow Raiders,

So, I spent a lot of time watching videos and reading, but would like a bit more information on using lures for salt water land based fishing.

I usually have trouble obtaining fresh bait and it does get a bit costly with the amount of hours I try putting in each week to go fishing. At the same time, if you guys advice bait works better, I will happily try be best to continue doing what I am doing.

As I fish Sydney harbour a lot, and will be beach fishing when summer kicks in, I was wanting to know how well lures work for species such as tailor, salmon, bonito (I am even happy with bream as I am still learning) ?

And what KIND of lures should I be focusing on purchasing and the method in retrieval (I usually let it sink, and do a fast retrieve if using metal)

Any pics of lures would be highly appreciated and once again, thank you for the support and time for reading my post! Happy Raiding!

Jay

[DerekD]

Lures 101....

First I've been fishing soft plastics for over 10 years and if they didn't work I wouldn't have persisted so long. If I am teaching someone to fish I use bait but I prefer lures for most of my fishing for a number of reasons. When fishing with a friend using bait they might catch more fish but my fish are generally bigger. Throw a piece of food in the water and generally the smaller fish race in and the bigger fish follow up to take anything which might be left. With a lure the smaller fish might pick at it but I still have a chance at picking up something bigger. Most of my biggest fish have been on lure but my 104cm mulloway was on a squid I caught earlier that afternoon on a lure. I can keep my fishing gear and lures in the car and if I decide to go for a fish at last minute I don't have race out to find bait. My hands don't stink of bait after a session either.

My gear for most of the lure fishing is 2-4kg 7 foot 6 2 piece Shimano raider Bream Finesse with a Symetre 1500 reel with 4lb Power Pro braid, 8lb backing (which I don't see) and 8lb Nitlon leader. I like a stiff rod rather than a spongy rod as I use it to impart twitches to the lure. My go to lures are Berkley Powerbait 3 inch minnows in pink, watermelon, blue or smelt or sometimes the 4 inch in watermelon. I also use 2 inch grubs. There are many fantastic alternatives out there but this works for me. I don't use Gulp but I think a biodegradable edible plastic is brilliant it is just that they get hard if they dry out. Use a jig head heavy enough to get down to where you want it to go without losing too much of the movement. Cast out and then keep the rod tip low (and 90 degrees to the line to absorb shock) so the wind can't grab the line. Watch the line as the lure swims down to bottom. The line will belly out when the lure hits the bottom. Flick the rod tip away from the lure to give the lure movement. Small twitches for the smaller lures and slightly larger twitches for the bigger lures. When you flick the rod tip retain tension in the line otherwise the lure will drop rather than swim back to the bottom. When you have to take line in make sure you wind back and keep the rod tip under tension. If line does not go on the reel with tension it will want to birdsnest at times.

When summer comes I chase the schools of pelagics from the shore or the kayak. At this point my go to lure is a Silver 10 gram Halco twisty with the trebles changed out to a single large eye size 1 hook (easier to get out of the fish and causes less damage). I use a swivel and duolock clip as I feel they are stronger than some of the other clips out there. Lost 5 Halcos in one session to other clips pulling when the fish were bouncing on the lure. At $6 a lure I changed clip design. These cast a good distance and I have had a lot of different species on these. Vary the speed on the day to see what is working. Sometimes the fish are so focussed on the baitfish it takes a lot of casts to hook up but generally keep persisting. The pelagics love the twisty (or similar) shiny lures and the competition and fast retrieve gives them very little time to decide to accept or reject the lure so they will often just go for it. In one short session this past summer one of my kayak mates picked up amberjack, kingfish, tailor, salmon and I think a yellowtail scad all on a twisty type lure.

One blade type lure worth trying in non snaggy areas is the Ecogear ZX40 or ZX35 (I think colour is less important). Cast these out and (they cast really well) and wait till they hit the bottom (sag in the line) and drag them back (rather than twitch them back - you will feel the vibration through the braid) about 30 to 50cm and let it settle as you wind the slack in (keep line under tension and stay in contact with the lure). Keep persisting with the lures. I have met a lot of people that say it doesn't work and then I show them my gear and show them how I do it and they look surprised and pleased at the same time when they hook up. I have my off days with lures where I know I would have caught fish with bait but consistently catching above legal fish makes up for it.

If you are fishing with mono make the switch to braid. You can catch fish with mono and lures but the lack of feedback and the spongy response to the twitches gets painful. While I use 2-4 gear I can upscale a lot of what I mentioned above to my 5-8kg snapper gear.

Edited September 26, 2015 by DerekD

[Cargo05]

DerekD

What a great and articulate response.

I have also switched to using lures exclusively. During years of fishing in the Murray we used Australian made hard body lures. Now that we have moved to coastal NSW I rarely use anything but soft plastics in a similar manner to DerekD.

[Jay88]

Lures 101....

First I've been fishing soft plastics for over 10 years and if they didn't work I wouldn't have persisted so long. If I am teaching someone to fish I use bait but I prefer lures for most of my fishing for a number of reasons. When fishing with a friend using bait they might catch more fish but my fish are generally bigger. Throw a piece of food in the water and generally the smaller fish race in and the bigger fish follow up to take anything which might be left. With a lure the smaller fish might pick at it but I still have a chance at picking up something bigger. Most of my biggest fish have been on lure but my 104cm mulloway was on a squid I caught earlier that afternoon on a lure. I can keep my fishing gear and lures in the car and if I decide to go for a fish at last minute I don't have race out to find bait. My hands don't stink of bait after a session either.

My gear for most of the lure fishing is 2-4kg 7 foot 6 2 piece Shimano raider Bream Finesse with a Symetre 1500 reel with 4lb Power Pro braid, 8lb backing (which I don't see) and 8lb Nitlon leader. I like a stiff rod rather than a spongy rod as I use it to impart twitches to the lure. My go to lures are Berkley Powerbait 3 inch minnows in pink, watermelon, blue or smelt or sometimes the 4 inch in watermelon. I also use 2 inch grubs. There are many fantastic alternatives out there but this works for me. I don't use Gulp but I think a biodegradable edible plastic is brilliant it is just that they get hard if they dry out. Use a jig head heavy enough to get down to where you want it to go without losing too much of the movement. Cast out and then keep the rod tip low (and 90 degrees to the line to absorb shock) so the wind can't grab the line. Watch the line as the lure swims down to bottom. The line will belly out when the lure hits the bottom. Flick the rod tip away from the lure to give the lure movement. Small twitches for the smaller lures and slightly larger twitches for the bigger lures. When you flick the rod tip retain tension in the line otherwise the lure will drop rather than swim back to the bottom. When you have to take line in make sure you wind back and keep the rod tip under tension. If line does not go on the reel with tension it will want to birdsnest at times.

When summer comes I chase the schools of pelagics from the shore or the kayak. At this point my go to lure is a Silver 10 gram Halco twisty with the trebles changed out to a single large eye size 1 hook (easier to get out of the fish and causes less damage). I use a swivel and duolock clip as I feel they are stronger than some of the other clips out there. Lost 5 Halcos in one session to other clips pulling when the fish were bouncing on the lure. At $6 a lure I changed clip design. These cast a good distance and I have had a lot of different species on these. Vary the speed on the day to see what is working. Sometimes the fish are so focussed on the baitfish it takes a lot of casts to hook up but generally keep persisting. The pelagics love the twisty (or similar) shiny lures and the competition and fast retrieve gives them very little time to decide to accept or reject the lure so they will often just go for it. In one short session this past summer one of my kayak mates picked up amberjack, kingfish, tailor, salmon and I think a yellowtail scad all on a twisty type lure.

One blade type lure worth trying in non snaggy areas is the Ecogear ZX40 or ZX35 (I think colour is less important). Cast these out and (they cast really well) and wait till they hit the bottom (sag in the line) and drag them back (rather than twitch them back - you will feel the vibration through the braid) about 30 to 50cm and let it settle as you wind the slack in (keep line under tension and stay in contact with the lure). Keep persisting with the lures. I have met a lot of people that say it doesn't work and then I show them my gear and show them how I do it and they look surprised and pleased at the same time when they hook up. I have my off days with lures where I know I would have caught fish with bait but consistently catching above legal fish makes up for it.

If you are fishing with mono make the switch to braid. You can catch fish with mono and lures but the lack of feedback and the spongy response to the twitches gets painful. While I use 2-4 gear I can upscale a lot of what I mentioned above to my 5-8kg snapper gear.

Hi Derek,

What an awesome write up mate! Learned and couraged up a bit. I think I will buy a few metal knights next time I hit the shops. My mate showed me how to work metals yesterday night and it was pretty fun (even though nothing hit it, even our baits were not being hit, so no complain.

However, I did have a question. As I am a land based fisho my mate advised I move around my casts as I am trying to FIND the fish, instead of the fish finding me i.e. with bait. If I cast around a bit, and nothing hits do I just go back to bait or switch lures or? This is what I am confused about a bit on how long to try and how many times to maybe switch up lures?

Cheers mate! Once again, great advise! Appreciated.

Jay

[nickb111]

Essentially I aim for tailor salmon bonito etc with metals just like you want to.. When I'm fishing blackwattle bay near the fish markets I cast 5 times max in the one spot. I change the retrieve style every time. A fast, then a medium, one where I rip the rod tip to make it move and stop and so on. I also try and change the depth that the lure is to try and find the fish. If the spot doesn't work move on 10-50 metres and try again. It's easier to use a sling style bag for this fishing. A 20 gram slug in blue or silver is pretty good for this sort of fishing.

Obviously if you can see fish and they're not biting don't move on, keep changing lures and retrieves until they bite. Don't change to bait keep at it and eventually you'll get the hang of it. Mornings I've found are better than afternoon/night for the metals too.

[DerekD]

Hi Again,

Good advice from your mate about shifting around a bit. A lot of people fish with bait passively and wait for something to happen. I used to fish my bait like a little bit like lures (moving it in short stretches) to find the fish and then when I found them I worked that particular area till they stopped biting. One of the reasons I like the lures is that you are proactive and always busy. Another reason for liking soft plastics is that I can fish the whole water column. When I fish from shore I am fishing depths of 1m in the shallows to maybe 10m further out.

First thing is put the bait aside for a session or two or just put one big bait out (say a whole squid) but spend the time fishing with the plastics. With my 4" plastics I use a Squidgy round lead head 9 gram with 2/0 hook. With the 3" plastics I use either the 5 gram #1 hook or the 6 gram #1/0 hook. With the 2" grub I use Berkley 1/8 ounce #4 hook (can't find these anymore). I find the Squidgy ball heads to be good value but if I was sponsored I'd probably use a lot more of the TT range. The following is how I usually go about it. Pick a nice fishy looking spot by the harbour with some oysters on the rocks, seaweed hanging of the rocks, sandy patches and a bit of a drop off. First off I'll try for an easy flathead or two. They are ambush predators and aren't really put off by lure presentation if it gets within striking distance. I'll use the 9 gram head on the 4" or even on the 3" minnow if I really want casting distance. Pick a direction and work the lure like I mentioned in the previous post. Change point of aim by about 5m and then repeat. Fan your casts out till you are pretty sure you have covered the area. BTW I have had enough kings hit the 4" minnow that it is not a complete surprise when it happens - they still win more often than not but I am left grinning like a maniac. After I have worked the area I change down to the 3" plastic with the 6 gram for distance or 5 gram for a slightly gentler presentation. Fan the casts out. After this I'll switch to the grub and repeat or move along by 50m to work a new area. Keep doing this till you have covered the area and if need be move areas. No need to rush the process. There will be times you get the small stuff but often enough you will get some really good fish like this whiting which went 41cm and I have had bigger whiting on lures in the harbour.

This brings us slice (twisty) lures. If you find you start losing tails off your plastics one of the likely culprits is the tailor. At this point I switch to the 10 gram twisty to see if I can hook up. Generally if there is no visible surface action then it is a waste of time throwing the twisty around for an hour or so with the hope of getting lucky. If I see surface action indicating feeding fish then out comes the silver twisty and then I work the area. The 70cm kingfish shown in my profile picture was caught on a 5 gram twisty with single hook on the bream gear with a 6lb leader when we saw some fish feeding on the surface in Middle Harbour. Took a while to land.

[rockfisherman]

Hey Jay

I had a stint, maybe a year or 2 where lures were the only thing I used. I had some good success on plastics, vibes and metal slices. The best soft plastics I found to be the gulp range, but some days squidgies did the trick, and so there the problem begins.I ended up having to many to choose from. Keep your range simple, with a couple different jig head weights. In saying this, the initial cost of setup (plastics,jigheads and fc leader)will be no cheaper than buying bait 4-5 times, the only thing you will gain is convenience, which is awesome, saving on time and dirty hands. The retreive depends depends on the lure. For paddle tails, raising the rod tip slowly as to have a slight bend, this will activate the tail. Once your rod is vertical, wind the slack up with a bit of tension as the lure is heading down. For shade, prawn, and nipper type lures I use 3 sharp taps until the rod reaches the vertical position again. I found using a slightly stiffer rod gives you a better action, where a shad looks like an injured fish, and the prawn and the nipper look like they're trying to escape, both of which will trigger a feeding response in fish.

Vibes are pretty awesome, for me these lures catch the widest range of fish which is why they were my favourite. Same action as the paddle tails, The vibration attracts the fish. A few different colours, light and dark should have you covered.

Metal slices catch bonito, salmon, tailor, kingfisher, I even let one sink once and tapped it along the sea floor for flathead. You get an awesome cast out of metals. For me the retreive should be fast, again, to activate the feeding instinct in fish. You can mix it up by letting the metal sink and bringing it back lightning quick, or as soon as it hits the surface start cranking it back.

Bibbed lures and poppers are another option. They start off at about an inch long and go up to big.Same principle have a few different colours handy. Poppers create a surface commotion like an injured fish. You can mix the retreive up by constantly jerking it back and having short pauses in between 1-2 jerks.bibbed lures I mainly used in the shallows for whiting and flathead, but you can also cast them near structure for results.

I had 2 setups, 2-4kg for lighter work with small metal slices, blades and lighter jig heads and plastics, and a 3-6kg for heavier stuff. In the end if it's money you're trying to save you probably won't, unless you keep it simple and enjoy the journey of discovering everything slowly.

Harry

[Loco Mofo]

Some awesome information in this thread, thanks for sharing these tips fellas.

I've been trying to pick up lure fishing for the last few months with not a lot of success. These tips will definitely come in handy next session.

Cheers!

[mrsswordfisherman]

Some awesome information in this thread, thanks for sharing these tips fellas.

I've been trying to pick up lure fishing for the last few months with not a lot of success. These tips will definitely come in handy next session.

Cheers!

Just a tip there are many posts on this - use out search engine and have a read of the articles http://www.fishraider.com.au/fishing-articles.php

You can also access the articles at the "articles" link up top left of forum

[DerekD]

I have found that during the colder months I have to work harder to catch fish and usually get less than I would in the Summer when most of the fish seem to be feeding more agressively. To anyone who has struggled with lures give it a really good try during the summer months. If you have a reasonable technique, the right gear (go lighter rather than heavier - you might lose more fish but you will hook up more often - let your drag do its job) and put the time in you should get more fish which is a great confidence builder.