Guest danielinbyron Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 i followed a link set out by some one last week re knots and lab tests which gave a result that i found a little puzzling but was happy about... that a spider hitch was rated at 70% along side a bimini at 70%....unless its a seventy turn bimini which was rated much higher......... now this might be a stupid question i've asked plenty. but does that mean 140% to the join ... and considering that most of my snapped lines are at the join to the double usually from snags ... which made sense to me as the first weekest point.... or does the double decrease the strength at the join to 70%? ???? it ocurred to me that i don't actually know...???? i was also told that a double should run twice around your spool and reach the water from the position you whould stand to land a fish.. though i rarely do that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken A Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 Got to disagree guys a well tied Bimini is as strong as a plait & I find it easier & faster to tie. Still like everything it's personal choice. I wouldn't place too much stock in a test that rates a Bimini at 70% - thats rubbish in my opinion. If your line is consistently breaking at the double knot I would suggest there is a problem with your knots. What type of knot are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mottyman Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 The problem is you almost need to complete a knot tying apprenticeship to be able to successfully tie one properly. If you don't tie them regularly they are a fiddly and time consuming knot best tied in the garage or lounge before any beers and I reckon on a rocking boat I wouldn't bother at all. Oh man, I hear that which is why I just use the spider hitch. I'm not game fishing or anything like it and the spider hitch serves me very well doing things like trolling for kings in botany bay or fishing under the cliffs south of Sydney. I haven't had it fail on me yet. I understand this wouldn't cut the mustard in other situations where much heavier gear is required for those mighty big fish but for light sport fishing it works fine for me. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluefin Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Have been using the Spider hitch for over 20 years. With 1 to 10 kg line I can't remember ever having a problem! Howard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken A Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 What does he rate the Bimini at ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken A Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 That's closer to mark I think it comes down to personal choice like everything else. I learnt to tie Bimini Twist back in 1974 & have been using it ever since in many applications from light gear through 24kg game gear. Never let me down yet. Easy to tie & with a bit of practice & using toes & knees you can tie long ones alone. To me its easier than plaiting. To each his own I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danielinbyron Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 To answer your question on the knot strength percentages Daniel, my understanding is that ALL knots create a weak spot in a line in turn reducing the breaking strain on that line. For example, if you are using 10kg line and you tie a knot that theoretically retains 70%of the line strength then your line is now rated at 7kg. Like the old saying, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. yes thats the part of the question i'm looking to have answered... having thought about it more and remembering the words of my mentor in such matters i'm leaning toward the idea that unless the line is wrapped twice around the spool there will be an increase of strain over a smaller area ... hence the invention of knots like the bimini and the plait to spread the load across a larger area without pinching down on one point.. hence the increase of strength with turns in a bimini.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken A Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 When you say your line is snapping at the join to the double do you mean you are tying a leader to your double & it's breaking at that point or is it breaking at the point in your line where the double knot is formed in your main line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danielinbyron Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 To answer your question on the knot strength percentages Daniel, my understanding is that ALL knots create a weak spot in a line in turn reducing the breaking strain on that line. For example, if you are using 10kg line and you tie a knot that theoretically retains 70%of the line strength then your line is now rated at 7kg. Like the old saying, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. yes thats the part of the question i'm looking to have answered... having thought about it more and remembering the words of my mentor in such matters i'm leaning toward the idea that unless the line is wrapped twice around the spool there will be an increase of strain over a smaller area ... hence the invention of knots like the bimini and the plait to spread the load across a larger area without pinching down on one point.. hence the increase of strength with turns in a bimini.... furthermore that concentration of energy over a smaller area would have to have the effect of a decrease of strength...when a line is loaded it contains energy... we've all heard the crack of mono when breaking off on a snag , i've even seen a spark... i have not noticed any difference between a bimini and a spider hitch in my practical ap of both but i don't use a seventy turn bimini.... i prefer spider for ease and expedience as i fish rough ledges made of shale no good to stuff around with line on and fish swim in and out of range really quickly at times .. thanks for all your replies guys...swells a bit big north coast might have to do some tackle maintanence.... always be fishing When you say your line is snapping at the join to the double do you mean you are tying a leader to your double & it's breaking at that point or is it breaking at the point in your line where the double knot is formed in your main line? no the point just above the double.... thats the puzzling bit ..because that would be the naturally weekest point in the line strenghth chain..."the weekest link" and i kind of mean scientifically... i further explain it further down the page... but what i am trying to ascertain is by using a double are you compromising a percentage of strength at the fork on the knot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpig Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Have been using the Spider hitch for over 20 years. With 1 to 10 kg line I can't remember ever having a problem! This is probably even lazier...for casting I usually forego the double and just tie a double blood knot , with the finer line doubled over. I have yet to have this knot break before the mainline. Having said that, when I have bust off, it is usually in the mainline about 10 mm from the knot, so perhaps pulling the knot up weakens the line. Nonetheless, a double-less leader casts better than one with a double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bung Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 totally depends if you're using mono main line or gsp or braid. with gsp (and finer mono for that matter) need to up the number of twists for bimini, and number of cycles for plait. 30 twist bimini has not failed for me for 6-15kg (though i prefer to do plaits - 1.5 to 2 inch plait ddepending how i'm feeling). for light gsp/fireline say 4lb i'd do a 50 turn bimini. can't be bothered plaiting light gsp and mono 4kg and under, sends me crosseyed learned to tie a plait while on the rocks when i couldn't get help from a mate to do a bimini (fish were going nuts!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashir Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 if the fish are going nuts a spider hitch and double uni is the go, you'd be surprised at how many people are landing good marlin and fin on spider hitches. Nevertheless I prefer the plait, I can't tie a bimini. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken A Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 no the point just above the double.... thats the puzzling bit What knot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danielinbyron Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 What knot? i haven't had a double knot bust from a fish yet so its a little academic... but when breaking off snags the same result for both a bimini and a spider... what i've realised through some of the answers in this forum is that by tying a double that doesn't reach twice around my spool and to the water .. which i do for ease of casting... ie 4ft double cats paw to swivel 60lb jinkai trace ie may be my spinning of softs off the rocks rig... by making it shorter i am creating a concentration of weight no matter what knot i use and there fore a compromise in strength ... i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken A Posted February 23, 2006 Share Posted February 23, 2006 I think it may be the way you are tying the knots. I have used short bimini's hundreds of times & never had a problem with breakage at the knot. By short I mean some only a couple inches long to give me knot strength tying to heavy leader. Tied properly it's a 100% knot. I never use spider hitches myself so I can't comment on those mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenist Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 From my understanding and experience the strongest knot depends on many variables. Bung is on the money when he said it depends what line you are tying it in. Heavy mono for example doesn't like friction much, hence the most suitable knot for heavy mono is the plait. However a well tied bimini is also suitable for mono, particularly if each wrap is made by hand, rather than using twist to make the wraps (that make sense?). For Braid, both bimini's and plait's are excellent. The bimini is a quicker knot to tie, and braid doesn't mind the twist created when forming the wraps using the twisting method. Again fellow raiders are doing well in that with braid you need about twice as many wraps with both knots. I am going to throw a spanner in the works and ask how you are rigging leaders, for light, medium, and heavy applications? I typically tie an albright if the leader is heavy, a double uni for light leaders of say 8lb and below. Both mono to mono and mono to braid. In heavy mono main line applications I do away with a line to line knot and use a heavy duty snap connected via a cats paw, then loop the trace to that. I read somewhere the other day in Bluewater of a twisted leader system for heavy jigging. It was an article on massive dogtooth tuna. Here the leader is tightly twisted and a heavy duty swivel is tied to the lure end via a uni knot. The mainline is then fitted using a loop to loop connection. Does anyone know how this works, as I have tried it to no avail. Good topic.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 I use the uni knot for the light stuff and use the plait for heavy stuff like doubles ,I need to learn the bimini twist if its easier than a plait as i can tie a plait in 30 or 40 seconds Its good to hear about all the knots and another I want to master is the loop knot for attaching lures which would come in very handy . Cheers Swordfisherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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