60hp Fourstroke And Trailer

[anthonym]

Hi all,

I am looking at repowering my 15ft stejcraft sportsfisher. It has a reliable 60hp merc at the moment but now that the kids are starting to come out with me I figure a new engine with warranty would be good. I am looking at the Suzuki and Yamaha foustrokes, both 60hp efi. Any thoughts on this selection?

Also I am looking at replacing the trailer. The boat currently sits on a brooker, but I have always found I've been chasing corrosion. Similar aged boat trailers always tend to appear in better condition. hmmm

Any suggestions re brand and model would be greatly appreciated. Anything to suit 4.7m glass.

Thanks

Anthony

[anthonym]

Thanks mate,

Just had a look at their website. I'll add them to the shortlist!

Cheers

Anthony

[a boat]

Hi Anthony, PM me or better yet call me for the Radier price and what I would fit to the back of and under that Stejcraft.

Cheers,

Huey.

[dogtooth]

Hi Anthony ,

I have just repowered my boat with a Yamaha 4 stroke and it is a AWESOME engine . Have a look at the New 70 hp 4 stroke yamaha that is due to be released 2010 probably at the boat show it has the bigger gearbox off the high thrust 60 hp yamaha is lighter than the 60hp as it has been lightened in a big way and is even lighter than the 75 hp ETEC . It would be worth the Wait. YAMAHA 118 kg VS ETEC 145 kg

Attachment to large to add just copy and paste in google...

[PDF] F70 Hot Sheet.indd

Cheers Dogtooth..... John.....

[dunc333]

hi anothonym if you wanna sell that merc give us a pm, a mate of mine is after 1 cheers dunc333

[Jewhunter]

G'day all.

Please refrain from "plugging" any non sponsors business in this thread. P.m replies if need be.

I've deleted one post & don't want to have to delete more.

J.H.

[a boat]

Hi Anthony ,

I have just repowered my boat with a Yamaha 4 stroke and it is a AWESOME engine . Have a look at the New 70 hp 4 stroke yamaha that is due to be released 2010 probably at the boat show it has the bigger gearbox off the high thrust 60 hp yamaha is lighter than the 60hp as it has been lightened in a big way and is even lighter than the 75 hp ETEC . It would be worth the Wait. YAMAHA 118 kg VS ETEC 145 kg

Attachment to large to add just copy and paste in google...

[PDF] F70 Hot Sheet.indd

Cheers Dogtooth..... John.....

Hi, I am sure this new Yamaha will be a fine engine, but comparing it to a 75HP E-TEC is a waste of time. The Yamaha is the same engine as the 60HP and I really doubt it does it HP rating while the 75HP is the detuned 90HP and does 82HP and with the differences in the gearbox the Yamaha will not have the grunt of the E-TEC and running a small gearbox and mid-section is how any brand of 4-stroke gets the weight down. Do yourself a favour and look at gearboxes sizes and a fairer comparision is the 60HP E-TEC with this new Yamaha, but still the E-TEC runs a larger g/box for better acceration on glass boats. All 60HP 4-strokes will not offer the same grunt as the old 60HP carby Merc but will be nicer to live with and use less fuel, but that is where we like the E-TEC-it does everything any brand of 4-Stroke does, but it does not sacrifice performance and the service costs, SST prop and the industires best warranty can not be over looked.

I do not have a problem with a boater choosing a 4-Stroke and I hope you enjoy your one, but there is a better option on the back of boats and that is why outboards for a 100 years have been 2-strokes and why only due to the EPA do we have 4-strokes, but as a dealer we should be the opposite becasue I do myself out of service profits by favourng what I do and all the reps of other brands that visit us wanting us to sell their outboards say E-TEc is great for customers, but not great for dealers and i can arge that.

Check your PM anthony when you get a minute,

Cheers,

Huey.

[dogtooth]

Hi, I am sure this new Yamaha will be a fine engine, but comparing it to a 75HP E-TEC is a waste of time. The Yamaha is the same engine as the 60HP and I really doubt it does it HP rating while the 75HP is the detuned 90HP and does 82HP and with the differences in the gearbox the Yamaha will not have the grunt of the E-TEC and running a small gearbox and mid-section is how any brand of 4-stroke gets the weight down. Do yourself a favour and look at gearboxes sizes and a fairer comparision is the 60HP E-TEC with this new Yamaha, but still the E-TEC runs a larger g/box for better acceration on glass boats. All 60HP 4-strokes will not offer the same grunt as the old 60HP carby Merc but will be nicer to live with and use less fuel, but that is where we like the E-TEC-it does everything any brand of 4-Stroke does, but it does not sacrifice performance and the service costs, SST prop and the industires best warranty can not be over looked.

I do not have a problem with a boater choosing a 4-Stroke and I hope you enjoy your one, but there is a better option on the back of boats and that is why outboards for a 100 years have been 2-strokes and why only due to the EPA do we have 4-strokes, but as a dealer we should be the opposite becasue I do myself out of service profits by favourng what I do and all the reps of other brands that visit us wanting us to sell their outboards say E-TEc is great for customers, but not great for dealers and i can arge that.

Check your PM anthony when you get a minute,

Cheers,

Huey.

Huey I totally agree with service costs being quite expensive and being alot more compared to a 2 stroke engine, and with the ETEC generating more power as it is a 2 stroke engine , SST prop is a bonus as well . Now i am not being biased as i still have 2 other boats powered by 2 strokes and never had any issues with these but spending alot of time talking and seeing what the commercial guys run and seeing 3000 hours plus on alot of these motors made my decision quite clear .

Some people like holden some like ford .....

Cheers Dogtooth..... John....

[a boat]

Huey I totally agree with service costs being quite expensive and being alot more compared to a 2 stroke engine, and with the ETEC generating more power as it is a 2 stroke engine , SST prop is a bonus as well . Now i am not being biased as i still have 2 other boats powered by 2 strokes and never had any issues with these but spending alot of time talking and seeing what the commercial guys run and seeing 3000 hours plus on alot of these motors made my decision quite clear .

Some people like holden some like ford .....

Cheers Dogtooth..... John....

Hi John, yes mate no problems and I am happy you like your engine, but the vast majority of Taxis are Fords so does that make them better then Mercedes? Some brands aggressively target certain markets and I know of many customers that have said to me brand X will supply an engine below dealer buy price while I will only sell an engine and make a profit otherwise you go out of business very quickly and we have ben in business coming onto 50 years.

Cheers,

Huey.

[anthonym]

Arrgh,

Now I'm more confused than ever. Two stroke vs four stroke. Injection vs carb. HD gearcase vs standard. Holden vs Ford vs Mercedes. By the sound of it I need to sit back and do more homework.

Cheers,

Anthony

Edited January 31, 2010 by anthonym

[tuffy]

Anthony, in my opinion there is no argument - go 4 stroke. Personally out of the two you mentioned I would opt for the Yammie, only because of their proven reliability and the fact that, like Honda, they have factory representation in Australia, whereas the Suzuki warranty etc is looked after by the Haines Group. Not sure what the current Yammie warranty is, but I do know that Honda for example has 5 year non-diminishing warranty on their donks. There is also the age-old issue with oils etc and 2 strokes.Do yourself a favour and do some more research on motors. Talk to some dealers/owners etc and get a feel to see if the engines have any inherent characteristic problems (or recalls )etc before you make your decision. Also, think carefully about things such as servicing costs etc and compare these things with your resale values at the end of the day. My new Honda 50 has 100 hour servicing intervals, and I probably wouldn't want to let my motor go any longer than that without it being serviced, just to be sure.

Just my 2 bobs worth.

Regards, Tuffy.

[a boat]

Anthony, in my opinion there is no argument - go 4 stroke. Personally out of the two you mentioned I would opt for the Yammie, only because of their proven reliability and the fact that, like Honda, they have factory representation in Australia, whereas the Suzuki warranty etc is looked after by the Haines Group. Not sure what the current Yammie warranty is, but I do know that Honda for example has 5 year non-diminishing warranty on their donks. There is also the age-old issue with oils etc and 2 strokes.Do yourself a favour and do some more research on motors. Talk to some dealers/owners etc and get a feel to see if the engines have any inherent characteristic problems (or recalls )etc before you make your decision. Also, think carefully about things such as servicing costs etc and compare these things with your resale values at the end of the day. My new Honda 50 has 100 hour servicing intervals, and I probably wouldn't want to let my motor go any longer than that without it being serviced, just to be sure.

Just my 2 bobs worth.

Regards, Tuffy.

Hi Tuffy, please fill me in with the age old issue of oil and 2-Strokes-you are living in the past if you are meaning the old carby 2-Strokes, because with say a 60HP E-TEC once a year will need the oil tank filled, just like you have to change the sump oil and filter in your engine. I do not know how you can say proven reliability, show me a 30 year old 60HP 4-Stroke-you can not and if you talk to a non E-TEc dealer of course they are going to say buy what they sell-just like we do, BUT we sell both technologies. I wonder if you have even run an E-TEC and as for service costs, you can paint it anyway you like, but with any brand of engne other than an E-TEC you have to service it to get that warranty while the Evinrude you do not and nowhere does it say you should not maintain an Evinrude like any other outboard and that means flushing engine, removing prop, greaseing the grease nipples and the like, and if you read your owners manual you need to service yours yearly OR 100 hours. You are typical of alot of people, even the 4-Stroke reps that should know better, you are comparing old technology to the new technology and they are all guilty of it, I have lost count of the number of articles I have read where a brand X 4-Stroke compares their engine to an old carby engine-BRP compare the E-TEC to a 4-Stroke, not an old carby engine. To use the automative arguement again, what the 4-Stroke guys do is like Ford comparing their brand new Falcon to a 30 year old Commadore and saying how much better it is.

I hope, as with any purchase the customer, in this case Anthony does his homework and buys what HE likes

and I am glad you like your engine, we will see if it still going in 30 years time.

I know come resale we here, with our over 45 years experince with outboards, will offer more for an E-TEC out of warranty than a 4-Stroke because trust me an out of warranty 4-Stroke can be too costly to repair and we have had it happen to us twice where we have sold a second hand 4-Stroke out of warranty that has had an issue and on both occasions the cost to repair the problem was worth more than they paid for the engine, where as being based on a simple 2-Stroke without expensive cylinder heads (and do yourself a favour and price up a head for your engine and make sure they replace the internal anodes your engine needs reguarly) E-TEC are cost effective to repair out of warranty. But again I can only talk from our experience and that is my 2 bobs worth.

Cheers,

Huey.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Huey @ Huett Marine

[tuffy]

Thanks for that, Huey. It's certainly good to see you have a passion for the products you sell, however, I can't recall anywhere in my post that I made comparisons to or even mentioned E-Tec engines. In the context of my post I was doing nothing more than encouraging Anthony to conduct more extensive research into what he is going to invest his hard-earned into,and accordingly make his own decision, so I take umbrage to your inference of my "typical" attitude. I, unlike yourself, have no commercial alliegances to any brand, but I do think that this site is such that fellow Raiders are entitled to offer honest opinions just as much as the sponsors are, so those that are perhaps less experienced in boating / engines etc are not swayed or influenced by any financially based biases.

In saying that, there are a lot of new Raiders that seek advice and opinions from others on this site in relation to tackle, rods, reels etc and the Raider community willingly and unselfishly shares their opinions without being attacked. I apologise if I have yet again hit a sensitive issue with you, but that was not my intention.

My primary objective here was to offer my opinion to Anthony, and that is where it stands.

Tuffy.

[dunc333]

all due respect to you huey but can i ask if there are any profishermen or comerciel guys that run these etecs as thats what i look for on the guys that use there craft everyday and dont seem to see any on sydney haubour ,you are a merc dealer to but you seem to luv these etecs which i respect ,i guess everyone has a diffrent opinon on engines and thats what these forums are for and luv reading your dioagnostics of raiders problems as you know your way around an outboard cheers dunc333.

[a boat]

Hi Tuffy, no one was attackintg you I was asking to enlighten me about your statement " the age old issue of oils etc with 2-Strokes"-what did you mean by that except I imagine you are saying with your modern engine when compared to old tech 2-Strokes you do not have to add oil to the fuel. If you meant something else please tell me and as for your bit about commercial allegiances I make money money out of selling 4-Strokes in services so you have not hit a raw nerve with me, I just would like to know what you meant by that and I was highliighting some of the typical misconceptions that the pro 4-Stroke guys like to put out there and they are not comparing "apples to apples. As I have also said Anthony is free to buy anything he wants and if he goes a 4-Stroke I wish him well, I just hope for his sake he does not have to replace an expensive part out of warranty.

Hi Dunc33, we have plenty of commecials users and yes I agree on Sydney Harbur most taxi run other brands , but as I also said these brands target these markets and only last week a commercial user up here wanted to run a 115HP E-TEC, BUT the buy price was alot more than brand X due to the discounts they offer these users and the fact that they offer a roll over program every 3-4 years. Have a look and most commercial users are late model engines, yes some with high hours, but to the average user the corroison is the bigggest issue and that happens years down the track way out of warranty and the commercial guys do not see this due to rolling their engines over and the fact that the salt does not get time to dry being used every day. Just before Xmas a pro fisherman had his 75HP in for service and it had done 3200 hours in 3 years and the compression was rock solid. In 25 years if we still see 30 year old 4-Stroke outboards running I will ptu my hand up and say is was wrong, but I will use what I see here every day of the week to make up what I choose to sell and trust me I could sell any brand I wanted to and yes I sell Mercs too and they are fine outboards like other brands are, but we just prefer Evinrude even though my bank manager would like me better if I sold more 4-Strokes.

Each to their own and unless Tuffy you can let me know what you meant buy that oil comment I will end my discussion here,

Cheers,

Huey.

[ReDeMp]

It has a reliable 60hp merc at the moment but now that the kids are starting to come out with me I figure a new engine with warranty would be good.

if its reliable then why change at all?

[dunc333]

huey thanks for the feedback i guess we all luv what we have and your knowledge is way ahead of mine, you are a great sponser and your valued input on this site is unpreceidented. i still luv my merc and i guess x luvs his yammi and z luvs his honda and so on and you luv your etecs because you no what you know.cheers dunc333.

[anthonym]

if its reliable then why change at all?

Better fuel economy and quieter would be nice. Also, it's a bit like owning a ten year old car. You start to look at the options and think that something newer with more comfort wouldn't be bad.

On this topic. Are the new gen of injected two strokes as quiet as the four strokes?

[micksfishn]

hi man mate hewits marine has just re powered my 435 with a 50hp etec what a machine im using less fuel than my old 35hp less oil and its nice quiet do not look past a etec

i done alot of shopping around and asked a heap of questions craig didnt play games he was straight out with it told me what i would get with the motor that the other motors don't come with and the money that is saved by the 3 years no servicing as im not mechanically minded his explanations were great

at the end of the day my new etec is bloody awsome and with the warrante they offer my opinion you cant go past them

[a boat]

Hi Anthony, all clean tec engine are on par in terms of noise. At idle both are quiet, with a good EFI 4-Stroke being a touch quieter than an E-TEC, but at cruising speed it tends to be the other way with the E-TEC, not having to rev as much, being quieter than a 4-Stroke. We are splitting hairs though and the best advise is that both clean technologies are a big improvment in everything over your current engine and that is my point, there is no point comparing old tech engines to the newer engines.

What I also like about what I recommend is that you can dial the idle RPM in via the laptop if you like to idle faster or slower. The E-TEC idles lower than anything on the market and being a batteryless ignition system, not only can your rope start them if your battery is flat, but it continues to run without a battery and something that is not advertised or alot of people know is that if BRP comes out with an improved software within 10 minutes a customer could upgrade his, say 2005 model 60HP Evinrude, with the newer software version. As I am sure most here know 12 months is a long time in terms of how fast this sort of stuff works so being able to update your engine to a newer version is a plus in my eyes and something no other brand has the ability to do with replacing the EMM. That said a customer does not need to do this, but what we do here is when an E-TEC comes in for anything we check the software version and update if needed free of charge and if you have not seen the diagnostic the E-TEC is capable of you should check it out-it is very cool if you are into that. Also being NMEA2000 compatible you can link a 60HP E-TEC to say a Lowrance HDS and get alot of cool info like accurate fuel flow and more-not many, if any other 60HP offer this, again mate just anohter reason why we prefer what we do.

Any further questions mate feel free to ask,

Cheers,

Huey.

[tuffy]

"Each to their own and unless Tuffy you can let me know what you meant buy that oil comment I will end my discussion here,"

Quite simply, 2 stroke is 2 stroke, and in whatever form the oil is delivered, they still need oil to mix with the fuel which is an ongoing extra cost, particularly when you use the synthetic oils. This extra cost is probably not significant with the mid-range motors, but I believe that changes when you get into the larger engines from what I have read through other forums etc., and coming from the mouths of Etec owners.

In saying that, there is probably not a bad engine on the market today, what with the advanced technology we have and so on, and that no doubt applies to the Etec's, but I find it interesting that with all the hype about the Etec, BRP do not use this 2 stroke technology in their personal watercraft, as they are all ( or mostly) 4 strokes. Personally I have not had direct experience with an Etec engine, and judging by the trade in price which was indicated to me last year on my then Honda from an Etec dealer, I probably never will.

As a dealer, it is your obligation to promote your own products, but to cast broad suggestions that every 4 stroke engine will suffer cylinder head problems is tantamount to scaremongering. True, the earlier Honda range ( A series ) did have issues in that area, but since the advent of the current B series ( about 15 years) those issues are no more prevalent than issues you will have with any other brand , 2 or 4st. But, we can go on and on, you and me, but poor Anthony must be totally nicked by now.

Cheers, Tuffy

[Marlin01]

Anthony,

I have had a 60HP Yammie 4 stroke on my little Haines for 5 years (335 hrs) and I must say I am very happy with its performance, economy and reliability.

Unfortunately most people will always support whatever brand they currently own or sell. I have had several brands of outboards on this Haines but must say that the two yammies have been the pick of the crop.

These products also aligned with advances in technology and represented the best value and most well fitted to my fishing styles, which are both very important considerations for motor choice.

I fished on an old sailfish fitted with early E-Tecs and it was a shocker with smoking probs and very inefficient on fuel. These probs have certainly been rectified by all reports and these outboards are now at the cutting edge whilst the four stroke manafacturers appear to have been resting on their laurels to an extentin the mid size category (50-80hp) for a period.

I also am due to repower my 445F and the 70hp yammie ticks the boxes re weight and power but I am dubious as to how stressed a block would be supplying 70HP that was originally designed for 50 & 60 HP.

The choice gets harder every year so my advice is to go and ask for a test drive realising of course it wont be on your boat but would still give a good indication of performance. Read up on reviews (independant are nearly always better than owners or manafacturers) and finally spend a day at a busy boat ramp and ask a few owners what aspects they like most of their near new outboards.

Cheers

Marlin01

[a boat]

"Each to their own and unless Tuffy you can let me know what you meant buy that oil comment I will end my discussion here,"

Quite simply, 2 stroke is 2 stroke, and in whatever form the oil is delivered, they still need oil to mix with the fuel which is an ongoing extra cost, particularly when you use the synthetic oils. This extra cost is probably not significant with the mid-range motors, but I believe that changes when you get into the larger engines from what I have read through other forums etc., and coming from the mouths of Etec owners.

In saying that, there is probably not a bad engine on the market today, what with the advanced technology we have and so on, and that no doubt applies to the Etec's, but I find it interesting that with all the hype about the Etec, BRP do not use this 2 stroke technology in their personal watercraft, as they are all ( or mostly) 4 strokes. Personally I have not had direct experience with an Etec engine, and judging by the trade in price which was indicated to me last year on my then Honda from an Etec dealer, I probably never will.

As a dealer, it is your obligation to promote your own products, but to cast broad suggestions that every 4 stroke engine will suffer cylinder head problems is tantamount to scaremongering. True, the earlier Honda range ( A series ) did have issues in that area, but since the advent of the current B series ( about 15 years) those issues are no more prevalent than issues you will have with any other brand , 2 or 4st. But, we can go on and on, you and me, but poor Anthony must be totally nicked by now.

Cheers, Tuffy

Hi Tuffy, do not think for a mintue your 4-Stroke does not use oil, even one brand of 4-Strokes warranty guide book states- "it is normal for a 4-Stroke engine to consume oil" and then it goes onto to talk about dilution and advises to go for a hard run after a long period of idle and at higher RPM more oil is consumed. Also mate you obviously do not understand the principles behind an E-TEC-there is no mixing of fuel and oil as you put. For the average user of a 60HP E-TEC $50 is what they will spend on E-TEC XD-100 oil in a year. Mate BRP do use E-TEC is snowmobiles and shortly in PWC and just like in the outboard game the Ski-Doo 600cc E-TEC outperforms the Ski-Doo 1200cc-all the same company. Goto www.ski-doo.com if you want to learn more. On the flip side to this point, BRP own Rotax, a world leader in small 4-Stroke engines, so IF they thought a 4-Stroke powerhead was better as an outboard they could make 4-Stroke outboards and it would of cost them alot less to do that than devlope E-TEC. For the Jap companies it is easy because they use automative or bike engines and it is not a big cost to adapt that engine to a mid-section of an outboard. Which way is best is upto the end user, but I am just stating the facts that I see here all the time by running and servicing all the brands.

As I keep saying show me a 30 year 60HP 4-Stroke still running and I will say I am wrong, here in the workshop today we have four 30 year old plus 2-Stroke 60HP and up engines running fine.

As Marlin said and what I said to Anthony when he contacted me, best to ride in a boat of the same weight as his with a 4-Stroke and an E-TEC and see what he likes the best and as I have said to you on number of occasions I hope you get a good run out of your Honda.

Cheers,

Huey.

[Stacer560]

anthonym, firstly take into account a few important items.

What is the changeover from your old 60hp to a new 60hp?

What will it cost for a new trailer?

If lets say your boat is worth today $10k (you paid $20k 5 years ago), and replacing engine/trailer will cost another $10k on top, therefore owes you $30k, then that means you are out of pocket $20k.

Would it be better off selling your rig and getting a new one?

I went thru the same as you, wanted a new larger motor (90hp to 120hp), fix my trailer and so on. But the cost of doing that was $15k all up (as a 2nd hand motor most dealers tend to think your motor is worth $1) i was better off selling my rig and getting a new one.

If you love your boat, fair enough, but going 60hp to 60hp when you already have a good mechanically sound engine to save $15 a trip of fuel, thats a hell of a lot of fuel to use to justify $6-$7k changeover.

In terms of engine brands, i looked at the cost of maintaining and repairing a motor BEYOND warranty period (3 years time), and by far, mercury is cheapest to maintain in replacing genuine parts.

The japanese motors are very expensive.

Don't be afraid of new Direct Injection 2 strokes, they are bloody awesome. A mate of mine travelled 220km on his 5.7m cruise craft with a 150hp etec and only used 55litres of fuel. 2stroke.

Anyway, thats my thoughts, i hope i dont offend.

[anthonym]

anthonym, firstly take into account a few important items.

What is the changeover from your old 60hp to a new 60hp?

What will it cost for a new trailer?

If lets say your boat is worth today $10k (you paid $20k 5 years ago), and replacing engine/trailer will cost another $10k on top, therefore owes you $30k, then that means you are out of pocket $20k.

Would it be better off selling your rig and getting a new one?

I went thru the same as you, wanted a new larger motor (90hp to 120hp), fix my trailer and so on. But the cost of doing that was $15k all up (as a 2nd hand motor most dealers tend to think your motor is worth $1) i was better off selling my rig and getting a new one.

If you love your boat, fair enough, but going 60hp to 60hp when you already have a good mechanically sound engine to save $15 a trip of fuel, thats a hell of a lot of fuel to use to justify $6-$7k changeover.

In terms of engine brands, i looked at the cost of maintaining and repairing a motor BEYOND warranty period (3 years time), and by far, mercury is cheapest to maintain in replacing genuine parts.

The japanese motors are very expensive.

Don't be afraid of new Direct Injection 2 strokes, they are bloody awesome. A mate of mine travelled 220km on his 5.7m cruise craft with a 150hp etec and only used 55litres of fuel. 2stroke.

Anyway, thats my thoughts, i hope i dont offend.

Hi stacer,

Looking at current prices,my boat is worth about 4k less than what I bought it for 10 years back. I have really considered the issue of 'overcapitalising' but I can't find anything else I like (read suits family, tows behind my car, fits in garage etc) for less than 30k.

I quite like the boat and i've spent a lot of time getting the boat the way I want it. I just want easy and completely reliable boating for the next 5-7 years. I'm only young but my body (joints) is giving out and I don't think i'll be able to trailer boat for much longer than this. I just want to make my boating comfortable and easy. I want a quiet, fuel efficient engine and a trailer that is easy to get the boat on or off.

I'm going to do as you say and arrange to test a few engines before purchase.

Cheers

Anthony

PS If anyone can suggest good trailer brands or anything to avoid, please PM me. I'm still a bit stuck in this regard.