Problems with boat starting

[perrydj1]

Older engines and e10 don't mix, you'll most likely have to replace your fuel lines with with new stuff that can take e10, old rubber lines that are already degraded will be affected by the ethanol in the e10, as will rubber and cork seals, and some carburetor components. It sounds like you might also have spark probs on one side, which will need to be investigated further, the fact that it runs ok sometimes indicates fuel prob, electrical problems tend not to be intermittent. Get rid of e10, replace rubber fuel lines and get your carbies serviced. The fact that you thought it might be flooding, might be a needle sticking?

Edited March 6, 2013 by Fozzy

[SargeRX8]

craig is on the money your carbs need rebuilding your engine is flooding do u by any chance have the fuel hose going up over the back of your boat which is higher than the engine/carbys? if so the extra fuel in the hose might be gravity feeding into the carby with a bad needle and seat than flowing into the engine

a good way of checking a flooded engine is to place the old dry spark plugs back into the head and crank the engine over for 3-5 seconds remove the plugs if they are wet your engine is flooded or remove your plugs and crank the engine over u should see the excess fuel spraying a mist out of the spark plug holes u will sometimes see the fuel/oil mix leaking out of the spark plug hole

u said u have a cracked coil? replace it this could be why one side is running hotter than the other also use a flushing bucket or drum under the engine when running the engine some of these old engines dont have pee streams to tell u its pumping water they only have the two exhaust ports on the back and the exhaust thru the prop which water should come out of each of those when running , u also said the spark plugs were white on the hot side of the engine this is running lean rebuild your carbys and it should be fixed this should also fix the hot issue

and as someone has already mentioned dont use the compressed air on your engine u would be blowing seals in the carby for sure when people say "clean the carby with compressed air" they mean the carby is disassembled and ready to be cleaned

the way i start my old engine (cold engine)

turn the key while the engine is cranking over push the key in than let it out instantly if the engine stays running yay happy camper

if the engine starts than stalls lift the fast idle lever half way than turn the key (without pushing it in) untill the engine starts

hot start

lift the fast idle lever than turn the key untill the engine starts (do not push the key in)

Yeah the symptoms were pointing at a flooded engine with no fuel being fed to the engine. The fuel line always has been run below the entry point into the motor, so it is the lowest point not affected by gravity.

The spark plugs on one side of the motor were usually dryer than the plugs on the left side which were more often than not, very wet.

I saw alot of videos on the internet and it was always preferred to run the engine with the water sucking points in a drum of water but I don't have anything big enough, unless I wait for thursday when the garbage man empties the bins and use the bin. I pulled the carbs off just to see how the gaskets look. They aren't in a reusable state so I put everything back together until I deem it worthy to source the parts. The boat doesnt have a push in key feature, really the only way she starts is by cranking and choking it.

Got another problem on my hands now lol check out below.

Older engines and e10 don't mix, you'll most likely have to replace your fuel lines with with new stuff that can take e10, old rubber lines that are already degraded will be affected by the ethanol in the e10, as will rubber and cork seals, and some carburetor components. It sounds like you might also have spark probs on one side, which will need to be investigated further, the fact that it runs ok sometimes indicates fuel prob, electrical problems tend not to be intermittent. Get rid of e10, replace rubber fuel lines and get your carbies serviced. The fact that you thought it might be flooding, might be a needle sticking?

Yeah were gonna drain out the fuel and only use unleaded or premium unleaded, depending what is available. I changed all the fuel lines now with fresh brand new ones.

Today I went to try start it up and it wouldn't turn over. The starter wouldn't even twitch. I charged up the battery incase it was low and tried again. The battery terminals got untouchable hot in about 2 seconds which was a bad sign. I checked all the wiring and everything was fine so in an attempt to turn the stater by hand, I heard a noise which was no good at all. Pulled off the starter motor and opened it up and this was the sight I was presented with.

Behold, a starter motor which looks as if it has been hit with a missile. This thing is minced, there is nothing left of the magnet and what is left got ground up and turned into ****** dust. What the actual ****, how the **** did this happen. I am really pissed off and am almost ready to throw in the towel on this ****** engine. I checked ebay for starter motors and apart from sourcing one from the US, all the ones available in Australia are rusted as **** and no guarantee is given. Time to send out some PM's and emails.

Seems like a never ending story of failing shit with this engine.

[Geoff]

Seems like a never ending story of failing shit with this engine.

Sarge You have certinally been unlucky , if it's not one thing then it's another. Even if you throw more $$$$ or time into repairs

I suspect , when on the water , your level of confidence that the motor will get you home will always be a concern.

Perhaps it's time to bite the bullet , say , enough is enough & buy a new or good quality second hand motor.

Geoff

[dunc333]

see if huey can get hold of a starter motor kit not sure if they will be round for that age though which usually has brushes magnets etc,

[DrownNprawns]

Hi sarge if the plugs on the side that is not firing change the coils over to the other side and see if the problem has moved to the opp side then you know if it is fuel or spark . BTW if the plugs are wet when you take them out means there is fuel in that side

also like a car you can change the plugs from one coil pack and cylinder to an other to check the leads are ok

Hope this helps

David

[Guest Aussie007]

looking back to your pictures it shows u have a electronic choke and u mentioned u cant push your key in so i thinks thats one of your problems someone might have replaced your ignition with a aftermarket ignition that doesnt allow u to push it in to prime the engine

[SargeRX8]

For the time being, I can't attempt to do anymore tinkering. Ive had conflicting bits of advice and suggestions. Some are saying scrap the whole project and buy a new boat. Another guy said if we can get the motor running for under $500, its well worth it. Another guy suggested its pointless since 90psi even on all 4 is too low and the motor will be lacking in power. Another person suggested that we decarb the engine and it may just push the compression up as it might be filled with shit.

For the moment, I can't spend anymore money into it, its reminding me of when I had issues with my car, although up and running now, it took alot of time, effort and money to get it there. I'm going to hopefully attend the boat show tomorrow or sunday, at rosehill, see what is what over there. Also might go and check out a stacer tomorrow. My dad was speaking with a marine dealer and he said he can do him a nice deal on an aluminium(quintrex I believe) with a 60hp yamaha and trailer for 15k brand new.

If I drive my car and it breaks down, I pull over on the side of the road and I'm safe. In the middle of a bay, harbour, or even river, breaking down isn't very pleasant at all. For the most part of me, as Geoff suggests, how confident could I be with this motor taking me out and bringing me home safely and reliably. Imagine we did fix the fuel and spark issue, got out on the water, done our fishing then go to start it up to hear the starter motor seized like that. The way I see it though, is what ever could have been a problem, has been a problem so far and its either been resolved or on the list.

We went yesterday to have a look at a second motor, almost identical to this one. It started up just fine but it was very shaky and cut out a fair bit. For the most part, I think its the end of the road for this boat and for safety and reliability, time to get something new. I will keep you guys posted.

Also Gazza, a note to what you posted. Not sure how much difference it makes but the ignition/throttle system(what ever you call it) is an evinrude system while the motor is a johnson. Don't know what the go is but it seems to operate things fine.

[Guest Aussie007]

90psi should be ok compression for a 4 cylinder as long as all the cylinders read equal i dont see why not to fix the engine u also fried that starter by running it far too long each crank and probably over heated the magnet causing it to crack than u cranked it again and just chewed it to pieces u ideally shouldnt need to crank a engine over for any longer than 10 seconds if the engine is set up correctly

the main problem is your ignition switch as i mentioned earlier without pushing the key in too prime the engine your choke isnt working so you'll be sitting there cranking the engine over untill the cows come home and it wont start, replace your starter with a new one if u can afford it if not get a second hand one online from some where parts for these engines are everywhere also johnson and evinrude are the same engines they are owned by the same company and are identical engines other than colour and decals

replace your igntion coil, ignition switch with a genuine part, rebuild your carburetors and u will have a great engine again i dont see the point in not bringing this old girl back to life its been around 30 years and it doesnt need to end now because of a few little things

if u have strong arms pour a cap of fuel down the front air filter, turn the ignition to ON, wrap a piece of rope around the flywheel and bring her to life it should fire up within a few pulls

[SargeRX8]

90psi should be ok compression for a 4 cylinder as long as all the cylinders read equal i dont see why not to fix the engine u also fried that starter by running it far too long each crank and probably over heated the magnet causing it to crack than u cranked it again and just chewed it to pieces u ideally shouldnt need to crank a engine over for any longer than 10 seconds if the engine is set up correctly

the main problem is your ignition switch as i mentioned earlier without pushing the key in too prime the engine your choke isnt working so you'll be sitting there cranking the engine over untill the cows come home and it wont start, replace your starter with a new one if u can afford it if not get a second hand one online from some where parts for these engines are everywhere also johnson and evinrude are the same engines they are owned by the same company and are identical engines other than colour and decals

replace your igntion coil, ignition switch with a genuine part, rebuild your carburetors and u will have a great engine again i dont see the point in not bringing this old girl back to life its been around 30 years and it doesnt need to end now because of a few little things

if u have strong arms pour a cap of fuel down the front air filter, turn the ignition to ON, wrap a piece of rope around the flywheel and bring her to life it should fire up within a few pulls

Believe it or not, you inspired me. After some prior reading, I read of one chap who ran these motors on 50psi even across all 4, although slow, he said his boat was very reliable and made a comment that after he decarbed the engine, his cylinder pressure shot up to 110psi in all 4 which was insane. I also read that these motors, if cared and looked after are work horses, although they munch through fuel like usain bolt on gatorade. None the less I spoke with my dad and nek minnit theres a starter motor here. Its a rebuilt unit and has a 6 month warranty on it. It is an identical piece to what we had on it but the housing of the unit was lined up somewhat different and the positive terminal of the starter motor sits about half a cm away from the block. Is this too close for comfort? I suggested to my dad that he takes it back there and have the guy loosen and change its orientation, I don't feel like fiddling with it because alot of shops will generally throw out your warranty for something so minor. If she starts up, were gonna cycle some seafoam through a batch of fuel(or probably get some of the other crap you spray in through the carbies and through the spark plug holes) and see how it rolls out. We also mentioned to the shop that the ignition switch was a different brand but he claims that the evinrude and johnson parts of this motor are exactly the same, just different stickers. The choke switch works but the thing I cant seem to find is how it primes fuel. The motor works purely by crank case pressure moving the fuel pump diaphragm to push and pull fuel. I can't see any electric components which could push fuel at request from the switch... None the less, I'll keep you guys posted with how things unfold. Hopefully a decarb of the engine can bump up cylinder pressure and a carby rebuild can see her on the water by next weekend!

[SargeRX8]

Well disregard the part where I question the positive terminal. I fit it up and there was enough room. I went to start it up, first it wouldn't go. I got abit of start ya bastard just to get it to kick over and bam it started immediately on the next attempt. I haven't changed anything since I took the carburetors off and put them back on and it sounded much better. Its also not heating on one spark plug more than the other. Ive uploaded a video of how it starts, it should be live soon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1hwKKqIOE0

I took that video after I let it run it self for about 15 minutes. During that time I did some forward then reverse changes, gave it some rpm, then let it idle. I didn't even need to use the warm up lifter, I only used it for the first couple of seconds just to get it stable. It never used to kick over like this even after a start. The starter motor never got stuck once like the old one did and the battery wiring was not even warm when cranking.

I'm uploading another video of it idling just for you guys to see how it sounds at the moment. I tried to get the camera into the guts of the carburetor, I noticed the top right jet seems to be squirting visibly more fuel than all of the other jets.

http://youtu.be/t-P6mY_5-Vc

Thats the video of it running, just 30 seconds worth, about 5 minutes after I first started it, warm up lever all the way down.

[Choicebro]

Well done mate, things are looking up for you.

2nd video was marked private and couldnt view.

Cheers

Choicebro

[SargeRX8]

Thanks for the positive comment dude. Corrected the second video, it should be viewable now. Tomorrow is going to be insanely windy but we might take it out just for a 10 minute run on the water. I suggested to my dad that we take a 300m length of rope and ill hold one end while he drives the boat and if the motor flops on us I'll pull him back to shore lol. If we do run it, I shall post how it goes.

Maybe prior to that I'll run this tank of fuel until its empty and put premium in a fresh batch.

[SargeRX8]

After running seemingly fine yesterday, this is how it sounds today.

What the ****.

http://youtu.be/jBj6y_w8C4U

I don't know if this is a misfire or if this is fuel starvation.

Edited March 17, 2013 by SargeRX8

[Guest Aussie007]

u dont rev a outboard out of the water

[Guest Aussie007]

u cant tell by just revving the engine out of the water u need to give it a good run up the river or across the bay, why dont u take it for a spin start the engine at the ramp go for a drive than return to the ramp before turning the engine off to see if it'll restart?

[Geoff]

I don't know if this is a misfire or if this is fuel starvation.

It's a misfire. Fuel problems tend to make the motor fade in & out or serge.

The sound your getting is short & sharp also , the excessive smoke is from unburnt fuel

Did you end up fitting new coils.?

Geoff

Edited March 17, 2013 by Geoff

[dunc333]

well done sarge just stay close to the ramp for water test ,im glad you didnt give up on her ,abit of tlc and shes coming to life.also decarb her at home.