Favourable conditions for Lion island

[jgrant666]

Hi all!

I've been doing a lot of reading on here and elsewhere on how to properly read wind wave & weather forecasts, and have come across a lot of good info. So far i've mostly played it very safe as I'm pretty new to boating & fishing, but I've not had much luck in the hawkesbury system so far and would like to try more around lion island with a view to moving a little further outside to some of the reefs just off broken bay and barrenjoey etc as I get more comfortable with the boat.

So far I've just been checking willyweather, seabreeze and the BOM and sort of averaging across them to try and get an idea what conditions might be like on a given day on the weekend so I can plan my weekends accordingly. I've done pretty well so far (except last Sunday when the winds turned out to be WAY more variable in terms of both strength & direction than anywhere had predicted) for fishing the estuaries & protected waters but I'm way less confident with assessing how conditions might affect more exposed locations like round lion island.

I'm keen to hear from experienced fellow raiders what sorts of conditions they'd regard as favourable for lion island & beyond, and what might be classed as red lines or no go days?

It's early days yet for the forecasts for the weekend but today it's looking like about a 1m swell both days, Saturday winds around 10kts mainly from the NE and swell from the SE with a period around 8.5 seconds, Sunday winds looking like starting NE shifting to SE later in the morning and swell starting E shifting to SE and a shorter period of around 5s. High tide at 6am & 7am respectively so will be mostly a run out for the morning (lights on my boat aren't rigged up yet so I'd be launching at sunrise to maximise legal time on the water).

Based on the above I'd be guessing that the combination of a run out tide and the winds coming from somewhere in the E would mean somewhat steep waves, but the saturday looking a bit better due to the longer wave period (less chop?) and the swell from the SE so should be protected a bit by barrenjoey head as opposed to Sunday where the combo of an easterly swell with a run out tide and easterly wind could be a bit rough? Obviously will have to watch how the forecasts evolve, especially once the BOM marine forecasts come into range (they only go as far as Friday today) but would appreciate people's reading of whether I'm on the right track and suggestions for the area

[jgrant666]

I was thinking that for Lion island at least as well as further out southerlies and westerlies could be a problem, especially westerlies for coming back in from outside....

[Guest no one]

So far I've just been checking willyweather, seabreeze and the BOM and sort of averaging across them

Hey bro,

This is an ok way of doing things, but to be safe as these can all vary a lot I'd go out expecting the worst out of the 3 instead of hoping the average will be right.

Keen to hear from experienced fellow raiders what sorts of conditions they'd regard as favourable for lion island & beyond, and what might be classed as red lines or no go days?

Now that all depends on not only the boat, but the crew, and the skipper! Personally I go out in nothing over a 1.8m swell with 8 second intervals with less than 15 knt winds. But thats because I'm going out offshore where swells make for a bumpy ride instead of smashing you against the rocks. Thats in a 4.8m Deep V fiberglass halfcab. I feel comfortable in those conditions because thats what I'm used to and in the time i've had my boat that is the limit I'm comfortable in. Now even in that 1.8m swell i wouldnt stand up in the boat and I'd be seated pretty much most of the time to remain upright as that can get choppy.

So for Coastline and islands you need to remember a swell hitting you sideways is going to move you closer to the rocks, wind is also a massive factor as the wind and swell working together move you quicker that you think! My suggestion would be only you will know whats safe for you, trolling around Lion in a 1.3m Swell will be ok, on the south side but if the tides running hard and the winds blowing more than 15 knts then you need to consider wider trolling. Also remember that the speed of the water moving around the north side of lion island can be fast, so fast it feels like a bar crossing... so while it might be ok on a dead tide, once the tide starts moving you will be thrown off your spot really quick!

Something I generally look at is wind speed because even in a deep V heavy half cab the wind can be a bitch. anything over 12 knts i wont even enter/exit Botany bay because the bay is so exposed and that results in very wet rough rides. It all comes down to experience and skipper confidence, 1.3m is a standard swell in Aus, the wind this weekend looks low enough, you should be fine. But dont take my word for it, or anyone elses... if you ever feel like its too much... then dont do it.

[amkr]

Here's my view with my mountains of experience.

The duration is what I'm starting to pay attention to - You don't notice so much on the trip out, because you just slow it down and the bow does all the work... Coming back inside is when it gets messy.

Lower swell period means the swell is closer together and that can make it REALLY hard to sit in between the swell!

If you haven't matched the speed of the swell you don't have much time to adjust and fix it before it either pushes you or you fly off the back of it and neither of those feel particularly comfortable.

We started to head out last weekend from the hacking and it was quite easy going at 8-10 knots.... Mel said she felt comfortable and would be happy to continue - I made the call to turn around. The closeness of the swell and my inexperience meant it took driving over one swell and 2 others overtaking us before I got the speed right. On the flipside, the further apart they are the more force they have.

These are just things I've observed from why whopping 2 journeys past the heads as the nut behind the wheel.

Edited October 20, 2015 by amkr

[jgrant666]

This is an ok way of doing things, but to be safe as these can all vary a lot I'd go out expecting the worst out of the 3 instead of hoping the average will be right.

Thanks mate, probably good advice. That would be my decision point closer to once the forecasts are a bit closer I'd reckon :-)

As for the rest of your comments (much appreciated as always btw), I'll be more concentrating on drifting at this stage, as we've got bugger all experience with lures and no idea whether we're using the right ones, I figure to try and get ok at baits first before branching out into lures then we'll always have a fallback if we're having no luck casting/trolling lures.

Our boat is a fibreglass 4.6m half cab, though not the deepest of Vs and seems a little top heavy. In my experience so far the wind has been much more of a factor than the current either when drifting or even just anchored (especially when the bimini is up!). Definitely safety first though, wanted to hit lion island again on Sunday but got to Barrenjoey and it looked bloody messy out in broken bay so gave it a miss.... Good info though on currents around the island & coastlines though - cheers! Your own swell limits sound like good starting points for me though which is what I'm after, as it'll influence where I launch - if it looks good then I'd probably launch from bayview which is a longer drive but closer to lion island or the closer in offshore reefs, but if it's a bit iffy looking then parsley bay or apple tree will probably be the go since you've got sheltered spots in cowan creek or the hawkesbury proper if broken bay tuns out to be messy. Pittwater itself seems to be way too busy with other boats to have much of a shot catching anything in really good weather hence would want to venture further out.....

May have to try botany bay or the hacking soon though, since you seem to do pretty well down there

[jgrant666]

Here's my view with my mountains of experience.

The duration is what I'm starting to pay attention to - You don't notice so much on the trip out, because you just slow it down and the bow does all the work... Coming back inside is when it gets messy.

Lower swell period means the swell is closer together and that can make it REALLY hard to sit in between the swell!

If you haven't matched the speed of the swell you don't have much time to adjust and fix it before it either pushes you or you fly off the back of it and neither of those feel particularly comfortable.

We started to head out last weekend from the hacking and it was quite easy going at 8-10 knots.... Mel said she felt comfortable and would be happy to continue - I made the call to turn around. The closeness of the swell and my inexperience meant it took driving over one swell and 2 others overtaking us before I got the speed right. On the flipside, the further apart they are the more force they have.

These are just things I've observed from why whopping 2 journeys past the heads as the nut behind the wheel.

Thanks mate - exactly why i'm going to be doing baby steps in broken bay for starters, it's exposed to the ocean so I can get some experience navigating in swells then start to venture a bit further experience as I get more experience both with the boat and reading conditions :-)

[Guest no one]

Also remember swell only effects open water, so a 1.8m swell will mean inside Pittwater will be fine but it's outside in exposed spots like lion island and headlands where the waves will be.

[Twinfisher 4.9]

Having fished Broken Bay for many years, if you have the unfortunate combination of a run-out tide from the Hawkesbury with the afternoon Nor'Easter it can be very treacherous. But in general, if coming in from off-shore, try to get your vessel just on the back of a swell and with judicious use of the throttle, try to keep on the back of the swell. If fishing around Lion Island under these conditions, going across the swells is never going to be a pleasant experience. Go with the swell downstream, then when safe head towards the shore and go back into Pittwater that way.

[jgrant666]

Thanks twinfisher - that's a good tip for the run back in with a noreaster!

Do you know what the bottom is like around lion Island and also some of the closer inbreeding like esmerelda or the valiant? I haven't got a reef anchor yet and don't want to lose a sand one. I've seen a few boats anchor up off the NW of lion Island and was curious

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk

[Guest no one]

Do you know what the bottom is like around lion Island and also some of the closer inbreeding like esmerelda or the valiant? I haven't got a reef anchor yet and don't want to lose a sand one. I've seen a few boats anchor up off the NW of lion Island and was curious

id drift it... very rocky! Also Paternoster rigs so you dont snag the hooks!

[jgrant666]

Cheers! Yup definitely paternoster rigs, been buying them so far but was very interested by a comment you made a while ago with knots vs 3way swivels, did that ever get resolved (well as much as anything can be with fishing.......), a lot of new knots to learn to tie your own vs using 3 way swivels, but tying you own seems more customisable WRT hooks & sinkers

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk

[amkr]

I tie my own but I don't even use real paternoster knots.

Surgeons loop, dodgy rigs! They twist on each other so I don't exactly reccomend it - but piece of piss to tie.

My strategy would be to make one or 2 rigs properly, and if you lose those on the day, hack together something a bit easier to tie one a boat.

[Jamestown]

Having fished Broken Bay for many years, if you have the unfortunate combination of a run-out tide from the Hawkesbury with the afternoon Nor'Easter it can be very treacherous. But in general, if coming in from off-shore, try to get your vessel just on the back of a swell and with judicious use of the throttle, try to keep on the back of the swell. If fishing around Lion Island under these conditions, going across the swells is never going to be a pleasant experience. Go with the swell downstream, then when safe head towards the shore and go back into Pittwater that way.

Absolutely spot on. Most important factor when fishing the mouth of the Hawkesbury is tide. A run out tide with a north Easter can cause a lot of dramas even with no swell.

[brad_tate]

I pre-make twisted dropper loops out of mono (I found that flouro breaks way under rated strain in these knots) and tie the top end off on a solid ring. I then clip these onto a snap swivel. This makes it easy to change rigs if Leatherjackets snip me off or I want to change the breaking strain of the rig.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Guest no one]

Knots vs 3ways - I know paternoster a can loose a lot of line strength so as long as you're using a strong enough leader then they're fine.

I now use 30lb leader and paternoster that up, even if it loses 30% of the line strength I still have a 20lb leader to play with. And from my past fishing experience playing 20lb carp on 8lb line was a regular exercise... Learn to use your drag right and it's not an issue!

I also know people tie paternosters different ways, both me and Amkr used the same rig tied differently on trip, I don't know whose was right or wrong!

[amkr]

^ I don't know if there's a right way, but I know which rig is better and it's not mine.

I was doing simple surgeons loops, you saw how quick I threw that rig together - took me about 10 seconds.

The drawback is the loops come out at angles and are prone to wrapping around themselves.

Your way is much better (I just don't know how to tie it from memory) the loops come out perpendicular to the main line and seem to not tangle anywhere near as much.

If I had the ability and was pre-preparing rigs I'd tie a twisted paternoster every time.

My 2 cents

[jgrant666]

Absolutely spot on. Most important factor when fishing the mouth of the Hawkesbury is tide. A run out tide with a north Easter can cause a lot of dramas even with no swell.

Thanks for that

[jgrant666]

Amkr / Teflon - interesting hearing your different takes on it, I might try and spend a couple of hours after work this week trying both ways once I get the knots down then try em out on the weekend and see how they perform. I could see buying pre-made rigs getting very expensive in the long run!

Sounds like Teflon must be tying proper dropper loops (the kind where you use a little pencil to twist the line), and I imagine surgeons loops for the droppers themselves that you hang your hooks off.....

[brad_tate]

Dropper loop

http://www.animatedknots.com/dropperloop/

http://www.netknots.com/fishing_knots/dropper-loop/

Twisted dropper loop

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk