So you think you can tow 3.5 tonne?

[Camo1808]

To start off with admin i didnt know where to post this so please change to where ever appropriate. Cheers.

So i am on a 4wd forum and this very interesting piece came up and lately on fishraider have seen a few posts based around towing capacities for new boats and a few people asking for recommendations on new cars.

I HIGHLY recommend everyone to read this as police are now even starting to fine people. (Heard at local boat ramp)

https://practicalmotoring.com.au/car-advice/why-a-3500kg-tow-rating-may-not-really-be-a-3500kg-tow-rating/

Essentially what is advertised at 3.5tonne towing capacity does not mean you can tow something weighing 3.5 tonne. You gotta include pay load figures. So the 3.5 tonne is often advertised as the car comes stock standard.

For example on my brand new triton i included a nudge bar. Tow bar. Sports bar. Roof racks. Light bar. Long range fuel tank (80l extra) all these things need to be added.

You then need to add body weights of passengers and then all the gear your packing for your trip. This all comes off the towing capacity.

Very interesting read and i suggest everyone have a squiz.

Cheers and opinions welcome

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[Catchin Jack]

Good post mate

[Camo1808]

Good post mate

Thanks mate. Its very interesting and certainly opens your eyes.

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[JimT]

also this is where insurance companies will reject a claim if the weights are not within limits

Jim.......

[Camo1808]

also this is where insurance companies will reject a claim if the weights are not within limits

Jim.......

Couldn't agree more

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[NaClH2OK9]

Thanks camo.

Interesting post and so easy not to spot the legislation

[Billy2014]

So, so many people tow heavy boats with inadequate vehicles. Accidents waiting to happen and if they did, insurance will reject the claim. The most common is the 2T tow vehicle towing a 2T boat + passengers and gear, fuel etc. Then there is the tow ball weight capacity to take into account. Rule of thumb for me is not to tow a rig that weighs more than the car itself, and 50% loaded tow ball. That leaves plenty of margin but watch the cars payload and axle capacity, that can disappear quickly. I think that police need to crack down on this, we should be forced to use a weigh bridge and check weights officially, our roads will be safer.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Billy2014

[abecedarian]

Depends on the vehicle. The examples given were all Utes and the widely variable payload will complicate things. Vehicles like the Grand Cherokee however don't seem to have that problem as the GCM is the GVM plus towing weight. So long as you stick to those weights there won't be a problem, but with a ute the amount you can tow may be influenced by what load you have on the back.

[Camo1808]

Yeah my apologies as i mentioned i just purchased a new triton so this is essentially what i was searching around

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[abecedarian]

It's a good point though and you still have to search for the details. I just looked up the Prado and the GCM isn't just the GVM and trailer weight, it's 130kg less, so it's possible to run into trouble if you push the limits...

[Camo1808]

It's a good point though and you still have to search for the details. I just looked up the Prado and the GCM isn't just the GVM and trailer weight, it's 130kg less, so it's possible to run into trouble if you push the limits...

Yeau exactly right. It opens your eyes for most vehicles.

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[Crossfire63]

So the bloke towing a 5.5 metre Cruise Craft behind his Holden Captiva on Sunday between Wollongong and Bulli on the highway was probably doing the wrong thing.

Gee I would never have guessed. Pity I didn't have a camera with me.

[Camo1808]

So the bloke towing a 5.5 metre Cruise Craft behind his Holden Captiva on Sunday between Wollongong and Bulli on the highway was probably doing the wrong thing.

Gee I would never have guessed. Pity I didn't have a camera with me.

Haha yes i would say more than likely :/

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[Billy2014]

So the bloke towing a 5.5 metre Cruise Craft behind his Holden Captiva on Sunday between Wollongong and Bulli on the highway was probably doing the wrong thing.

Gee I would never have guessed. Pity I didn't have a camera with me.

Excellent example! Its not only his rig, family that is at risk, its also other road users. In an emergency situation, a loaded up soft-roader towing a 1.7T BMT with other gear inside would struggle to do very well in an emergency situation. If it is wet, forget about it, game over!

[abecedarian]

A nearly 2 tonne vehicle towing 1.7 tonnes is going to do as well as a nearly 3 tonne vehicle towing 3.5 tonnes. The Captiva is probably just as capable of stopping 1.7 tonne in an emergency as a Discovery stopping 3 tonne. It all comes down to the trailer brakes, they're type and condition as to how well they will stop. And the skill of the driver.

[Yowie]

Just a matter of taking the tow vehicle and boat/caravan to a public weighbridge.

Did that with my van and found it was just overweight. Changed things in the van and tow vehicle, now just under the allocated weights.

The cops and RMS (former RTA) have been talking about weighing tow vehicles and the trailer/boat/van for a while, only a matter of time before it happens. As some of you may be aware, there are a few caravans recently that have been tipping over, usually a big van towed by a ute that is rated to tow heavy weights (3 to 3.5 tonnes) but the ute is light in the arse and has no stability or weight to control such a heavy caravan/boat.

[Camo1808]

Just a matter of taking the tow vehicle and boat/caravan to a public weighbridge.

Did that with my van and found it was just overweight. Changed things in the van and tow vehicle, now just under the allocated weights.

The cops and RMS (former RTA) have been talking about weighing tow vehicles and the trailer/boat/van for a while, only a matter of time before it happens. As some of you may be aware, there are a few caravans recently that have been tipping over, usually a big van towed by a ute that is rated to tow heavy weights (3 to 3.5 tonnes) but the ute is light in the arse and has no stability or weight to control such a heavy caravan/boat.

I think they should hurry the hell up and introduce this legislation as previously mentioned in this topic, there are far tooo many idiots ignoring weights and exceeding limits.

As mentioned already its not just their cars damage or their own life its other road users who are obeying the limits and road rules are at a high risk.

Its not safe

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[Billy2014]

A nearly 2 tonne vehicle towing 1.7 tonnes is going to do as well as a nearly 3 tonne vehicle towing 3.5 tonnes. The Captiva is probably just as capable of stopping 1.7 tonne in an emergency as a Discovery stopping 3 tonne. It all comes down to the trailer brakes, they're type and condition as to how well they will stop. And the skill of the driver.

Sure the Captiva will tow OK but like any car, it is not designed to tow above capacity, safely, it is not. No car should tow above capacity, what I subscribe to is a healthy margin in any case i.e. 2T BMT and 3T towing with 300kg tow ball rating. If you tow to near capacity, then the vehicle needs to be setup correctly and the complete 'weight' picture is taken into account. The majority of BMT rigs under 2T will have basic mechanical brakes (usually in varying levels of service and effectiveness) The Captiva's tow rating ranges from 1.5T to 2.0T (depending on the model) and the tow ball weight load limit is probably around 150kg - 200kg (I can't actually find this info curiously enough) which is probably typical of a 5.5m glass boat, slight guesstimating here but most of us have enough experience around boats to know. If I were towing with a Captiva, I would make sure that the boat, fully loaded with fuel, bait, fishing gear, batteries, radio, safety gear, gaffs, your lunch, your mates esky full of beer also comes in under 1.5T or 2T depending on the model of Captiva. In addition to this, if I were towing with any model Captiva, I would also use a weight distribution hitch. I would use a WDH device on any car that is towing close to it's capacity. The Captiva is still a soft roader therefore it has normal suspension, just like a car, loaded up, it will sag at the rear, braking distance and steering control dramatically reduces and I mean by many metres. So, in reality, both the towing weight and the tow ball hitch car manufacturers recommended capacities are more than likely being exceeded in this case so insurance is also still a problem, if it came down to it.

Back to the comparison, besides better 4WD suspension, the heavier vehicle will have better control, less body roll induced by the load, lurching and sag and that's under normal driving, not an emergency, simple physics. I have done enough towing miles in 4WD and soft roaders to know, & currently I own one of each & tow with both. In a lighter weight car, your car is the passenger and the boat is taking the car for a ride, that's the bottom line. A genuine 4wd or similarly rated tow vehicle, properly setup for towing is usually heavier, this makes a huge difference, the boat is now taken for a ride by the car, not the other way around, the suspension has a higher load rating (much better because the front tyres are still firmly on the ground) and most importantly, the brakes have better stopping power in a good 4x4, larger discs etc. The more a car gets pushed around by the the boat while towing, the more dynamic the loads become, this is not good. For example, if the car wallows and lurches while towing, the tow ball capacity will temporarily exceed it limits due to different loads and angles being imposed onto the tow ball. If you slam the brakes on or swerve or both, the lighter the car, the softer the suspension, the weaker the brakes, the less control of your total load you will have.

I haven't even begun to look at the vehicles payload capacity but we can assume that with a couple of adults in the front, kids in the back, boot load chocked up with gear and a tow ball weight being exceeded, this example rig is not in my version of 'safe', I can almost guarantee that the Captiva's LEGAL payload, vehicle axle load is or is uncomfortably close to being exceeded on a typical family holiday, towing a 5.5 glass boat. The laws must assume that we all don't have professional driving skills because 99.99% of us towing do not. Sadly though, peoples understanding of 'safe' can vary wildly and this is exactly why we need much tougher control and towing laws that are the same across Australia...As boaters, we are way behind caraveners and 4wd'ers when it comes to knowledge on all aspects of towing because the majority of our trips are short, local boat ramp and back. Its when we hitch up for that 300km long hilly tow holiday and take the whole house with us, that's when things start to get out of hand.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Billy2014

[abecedarian]

If the weights over the axles, tow ball or the overall weight is greater than the specified limit then it's not safe, and from what you're saying that driver was probably an idiot.

I guess my point is that it's all relative. If you're towing within the limits of the vehicle than with some sensible driving it should be safe. Of course it won't tow as well as a heavier, better suspended vehicle, and longevity won't be as good. But it should be safe.

Your point about the lack of skill is a valid one though. I see people towing fair sized boats down Mt Ousley traveling at the speed limit riding the brakes the whole way down. Doesn't matter how within the limits of the car they are, when drivers behave like that it's only a matter of time before they cause an accident.

[Billy2014]

If the weights over the axles, tow ball or the overall weight is greater than the specified limit then it's not safe, and from what you're saying that driver was probably an idiot.

I guess my point is that it's all relative. If you're towing within the limits of the vehicle than with some sensible driving it should be safe. Of course it won't tow as well as a heavier, better suspended vehicle, and longevity won't be as good. But it should be safe.

Your point about the lack of skill is a valid one though. I see people towing fair sized boats down Mt Ousley traveling at the speed limit riding the brakes the whole way down. Doesn't matter how within the limits of the car they are, when drivers behave like that it's only a matter of time before they cause an accident.

Completely agree, it's all relative and case by case, the loads and issues are different. I guess that is why we don't have a fool-proof, uniform and country wide set of rules, it's all too hard and left to the individual to sort out and make a call on. In many cases, if things were done right, many people would be towing smaller boats or taking the purchase of a more capable tow vehicle into account at the time of purchasing a boat.

[Yowie]

I see people towing fair sized boats down Mt Ousley traveling at the speed limit riding the brakes the whole way down. Doesn't matter how within the limits of the car they are, when drivers behave like that it's only a matter of time before they cause an accident.

Not a good road to be speeding down. At least caravans have their own brakes, don't know about the larger boat trailers though.

[brad_tate]

After running out of brakes in a Mitsubishi Magna wagon loaded with 4 adults and a child coming down the Bells Line of Road 20 years ago I quickly learnt to use engine braking. I tow my 5m tinny up and down the state a few times a year, loaded with camping gear once a year, in my Toyota Aurion. I engine brake as much as possible, particularly around the Hawkesbury and Bulli on the M1.

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[Billy2014]

After running out of brakes in a Mitsubishi Magna wagon loaded with 4 adults and a child coming down the Bells Line of Road 20 years ago I quickly learnt to use engine braking. I tow my 5m tinny up and down the state a few times a year, loaded with camping gear once a year, in my Toyota Aurion. I engine brake as much as possible, particularly around the Hawkesbury and Bulli on the M1.

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Whiting,

Engine braking is one aspect of it and a good technique to use that many people don't understand, I am very glad to hear that you were able to avoid disaster and be here now to tell the story! The main problem is when that odd thing happens that causes sudden braking and swerving and it is usually at the worst possible time, Murphy's Law. The Aurion would benefit enormously with a weight distribution hitch if you aren't already using one but just watch those legal weights, car's payload specifications (passengers and gear) Tow ball weight capacity and towing capacity. In a sedan, these figures need to be looked at really closely. I appreciate that you are most likely a very good and safe driver but if your capacities are even close to being exceeded, if something unfortunate should ever happen and even if its not your fault, insurance companies have every right to reject a claim once they start digging around for reasons to say no and they will, they are professionals at it...Of course, if you are confident that your loads are in check then I wouldn't worry, the Aurion has a reasonable capacity, 2T I think but they did come with 1.6T at one stage. I am guessing your rig will be around 1.2T+? If its a pressed tinny, if it's plate then it will be more like 1.5T. I'd really focus on the car's carrying capacity and tow ball capacity, manufactures stated capacities are static loads, in the real world, these loads are dynamic which kind of makes leaving a bit of a buffer really important in my view.

I think anyone can benefit by watching this video, there is some great information here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTuNPuyfGSg

Edited February 3, 2016 by mrsswordfisherman
Billy replaced that link with direct youtube - way too many ads on the other

[locodave]

After running out of brakes in a Mitsubishi Magna wagon loaded with 4 adults and a child coming down the Bells Line of Road 20 years ago I quickly learnt to use engine braking. I tow my 5m tinny up and down the state a few times a year, loaded with camping gear once a year, in my Toyota Aurion. I engine brake as much as possible, particularly around the Hawkesbury and Bulli on the M1.

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I had no brakes along that road too. I was on my way to Bathurst when the master cylinder went. I could stop but took a while. When I got into the town I realised how slow I had to go. I couldn't come to a complete stop at a run about and a lady was yelling at me! I waited until night to drive home and luckily there were no cars on the road that night. By then I knew my stopping distance, but still not the best thing.

[jeffb5.8]

Just checked my wife's 2015 Nissan Pathfinder is rated 2700kg braked 750kg without trailer brakes.

My Ranger is 3,500 braked and 750kg without brakes.

So I guess I have enough safey factor as the new boat is 1480kg plus fuel, ice, gear and food extras say another 500kg plus 250kg for the people in the cabin, takes me to 2230kg. Both cars are capable.