wazatherfisherman

G'day Andrew the only thing you have to remember with using an Alvey is that there must be a swivel as the highest part of your rig, which is easy when spinning with gars or big minnows. A swivel on your mainline then about 2 feet of 15-25 kg leader then gangs or minnow style lure- minnow style don't spin, they wobble side to side but turning the reel around to sidecast position is what causes the twist. An easy way of describing the twist effect is to use a garden hose as an example. If you pull hose off it's drum or hose-reel straight off, it won't twist. If you pull loops off the side of the reel, when you pull hose back in you'll see that it has developed twist which needs to be straightened out as it won't go back on reel properly- if it does go on it looks uneven and slightly 'unsightly'. When beach fishing, the general rig of sinker, bead, swivel, leader, hook always causes twist, but the advantages of the reel on the beach leave any other reel type miles behind. To combat the line twist issue on the beach, some people run their sinker between 2 swivels which works well for minimising twist and maximising casting distance, but takes away the ability to 'feed' line out and I use the former rig regardless of the inevitable twist. When beach fishing, it's pretty easy to cut your line, put your rig in your pocket and go for a walk along the beach, dropping your rig-less line in the water and walking off about 150 metres, then winding it back on through the water.If you do this on your walk away, then again on the way back, maintaining retrieving it through the water, it generally re-straightens your line. Doing this twice in a few hr's on the beach only takes a few minutes and prevents otherwise dreadful line snarls that result from the twist. Without doing it, this will always happen when there is anything above the swivel like sinker or bobby cork. The most commonly used rig for fishing the rocks anywhere around Sydney, for virtually everything is swivel 2 feet of leader with a running 0,01 or 1 size sinker straight onto the hook, if you get busted by a pig or snagged or 'leatherjacketed' you lose your hook and sinker but rarely your swivel and it's the most productive rig for most popular fish. For gars and pilly's same rig(heavier leader) and gangs with no lead. This pretty much negates twist from the start, with no need to do the 'un-twist' thing at all. Correct swivel size is important, the smaller the better they work. Good general rule of thumb is to never have the gauge of the swivel wire thicker than the mono eg up to 11-12 kg line a size 8 or 9 swivel. This of course changes when using braid, but braid isn't much good on a sidecast where you're spreading your line on retrieval with your fingers- OUCH! Rod length- I've had 5 or 6 rods, all fibreglass. all between 9 and 10 feet long. 3 of them were really fast taper and they cast further but didn't slow the fish anywhere as well as the 'Multi-taper' style did. The 'MT' series of blanks with a more 'through' action(bending for around 35-40% of blank length as opposed to 20-25-30% of 'FT' fast taper) This is actually a really important consideration for this style of fishing, as although FT series cast better, MT styles are better for your back as they act more like a shock absorber in a way not dissimilar to the action of a Luderick rod, (but of course not bending through like a Luderick rod which bends to almost 75% of blank) Alvey 600A5(no drag) was my most used sidecast for nearly all general rockfishing except the heavy duty stuff like we're talking about, the advantage was primarily weight and far less bulk of the reel. For the heavy duty stuff, the 650 size has far greater line capacity and wider spool and is more robustly made. The 651E5 was much heavier with reinforced deep spool and drag system not something you could hang onto all day, primarily a live bait reel. I got 2 custom made deep spooled cedar 600's made by ex Alvey spool turner Barry Langley and these have become my favourites with the lighter weight, yet deep spool. It's well worth buying a 2nd hand cedar spool on something like ebay. You commonly see them in "Rosewood" stain and they are superb to use. As for geared Alvey, I had the first model they brought out, but it was geared too high and needed a lot of start-up inertia to get it moving, meaning there was far less direct drive and result was less power. It's the only Alvey I didn't like, but became a collectors item. I got rid of mine years ago. I didn't try the next couple of versions, nor have I ever been a huge fan of the C series drag reels, just a personal thing, I preferred the A5 plain reels. Sorry for the usual long winded answer, but these are my favourite reels to catch fish on! Cheers Waza

Sorry, just have to say something re Alvey's not being suitable for Kingfish. I live baited for Kingfish off the rocks for near enough to 20 years. Started off with plain 650 no drag 20lb mono- too light, caught a few, lost heaps. Next 30 lb mono, still lost a lot but caught a few more. Next 700 Alvey- no drag 40lb Weiss Perlon started catching them regularly but still lost many of the larger ones. Next 651 E5 Alvey- with drag but handles mounted on spool 48 lb Tortue- caught most only lost occasional one. As PaddyT said fine for spinning with gars and also for spinning giant minnow lures. When the "sports-fishing" bug struck, changed to Penn Senator 113H star drag, 20lb(lost too many) then 30lb mono, then Policansky lever drag 30lb mono, Losing them again. Back to 651 E5, only lost odd one again. Bought another E5 Alvey- standard 650 size 33lb Tortue(651 has super deep more reinforced spool holds 600+ metres of 50lb mono) for dual purpose live bait/ gar and minnow spinning. The E5 series in my opinion are the best Kingfish/Mulloway reels ever made for rock fishing. Don't think they are still available as like many Alvey's were made too well and will last owner a lifetime. Very rare to see an "E5" model on ebay and they always sell for a big price. Good drag and trouble free. No question that lever drag overheads are miles ahead for Tuna etc. Almost ALL the live bait guys that fished Sydney cliffs and also Bluefish used Alvey's, not to mention most of the northern rivers wall Mulloway guys and original WA balloon fishers. Rods were from 81/2 to 10 foot (with the majority just over 9 foot)- "Butterworth" MT 9108,9120,9136 OR FSU6120, Silaflex FT70 with aluminium extension butt, Sportex 3904-6 and Fenwick LB1086, LB1206 were the"go-to" blanks for building the rods. Again, as Paddy said above, 2nd hand surf rod with a bit cut off the tip was also a popular alternative. As a side note, George Forrester of the AFA club used to jig for kings at the peak with a 725C52 Alvey and would sometimes get 30-40 fish in a day. You learn a great deal fighting fish with sidecast and centerpin reels and it's just my opinion, but having a 'stand-up' fight with a large fish in this style of fishing is really exciting. Sadly, Alvey fishermen seem to be a dying breed around Sydney and Alvey nearly closed last year, mainly because they made reels so well that they were 'handed-down' from father to son without needing to be replaced. Maybe you should borrow one and try it

Hi Neil the Mattens is actually about 1.3km north of the murk and was clean water unless it was a southerly, then we got the brown water and of course the smell. Funny thing with the smell was after it 'got' you initially, you really seemed to become 'acclimatised' to it and didn't really notice until reaching the top of the cliff on the way back. I guess that must have been the way it was for everyone living in the area. The only time it was really bad was when the great sewerage strike was on, which was during a period of calm seas and fairly hot days. Untreated effluent was released straight into the sea and the 'murk-line' was more visible than ever, almost chocolate-brown. Bondi Beach was fairly crowded when we drove past on the way to Dover Heights and the usual northeasterly flow was pushing the murk water right in at the beach. The afternoon southerly breeze arrived and sent the murk up to us and the fish really came on. We had a couple of sensational overnight Mattens trips while the strike was on. I also hope someone replies re the offshore outlets, seems logical to me that there'd be tons of fish around them regardless of the "filtering". Cheers Waza

Hi Luke I only fished for Kings at the Mattens PB that was weighed 17.52 but I caught 2 a bit bigger that weren't weighed as I'd stopped club fishing. 5-12 kg fish were caught by all the guys regularly throughout summer

The first thing guys learnt about fishing the murk was NEVER bite your line!

Hi Dieter the Mattens is extremely dangerous to climb and every single one of the old crew had at least one injury plus very close calls with the cliff, including falls, Police Rescues, ropes cut etc. A couple of the guys tragically passed away. I decided to stop going following two incidents on the same day and none of the old crew go down any more. More often than not, our trips were overnight stays and a huge effort was involved in doing that, but the rewards in the 70's-80's were great. I first climbed the cliff as a 16 yr old and our fishing mentor Wally McLuckie continued climbing until he was 80 or 81 yrs old. A more terrifying climb is involved fishing Macquarie Lighthouse and I urge anyone thinking of fishing there or the Mattens to reconsider, there are plenty of safer options. Cheers Waza

Gday Deiter (hope I got that right!) Yes Bondi Murk had permanent steel cables running out to two different "islands" that were "private" spots- the cables had padlocks locked on in strategic places to prevent non-owners from using them. Once out on the islands there were chest-high 'grab-stakes' cemented in as 'safety' measures for when a larger than usual swell came in, as there was nowhere to hide once out there! There were a couple of really well made "lockers" built into the cliff wall where the appropriate gear was kept also. A couple of Eastern Suburbs Anglers Club guys who fished the Mattens also told me of how they 'bounced' their way out to get over the padlocks on their own simple chairs. The same two blokes also used to drop an aluminium ladder across a 5-6 metre gap to fish from "Big-Rock" that is at the extreme north end of the Mattens over a km from where we fished. Big Rock faces north and is about 10-12 metres above the water. I wasn't game to have had a go at doing that!

Hi KB the Mattens is a clean water spot that always had an abundance of fish, however not in the huge numbers of the murk. A 40 metre pulley rope was used through a permanently installed pulley to raise/lower gear, rods and fish up the most dangerous part of the climb, as it was not possible to carry anything on the vertical rope climb, but you had to carry them the rest of the way up. Plenty of my fishing mates weren't into climbing the cliff and I fished heaps of other spots with these guys, including the 'gutters' between Bluefish and little Bluefish, which was also a great Luderick area. I worked in a tackle shop close to Tooth's brewery and many of the Brewery fisho's fished Bondi murk as their 'regular' spot. When coming in to buy rod building components for a 'murk rod' they always bought really large chrome plated runners with no insert, same for the tip, and a minimum size runner of about a 16 or 20 mm to enable all the line 'gunk' to travel through when retrieving a fish. That was in 1978

Thanks Rick I was wondering if there were/are similar ocean outfalls on the central coast? If so would you know if they were fished heavily like most of Sydney's?

Thanks for the detailed report! That's a good recommendation I'm happy with it so far also. Still can't believe the fineness and extra casting distance! Cheers Toilor

As many older fisho's would remember, while in operation, Sydney's ocean sewerage outfalls were very popular fishing spots that produced huge numbers of a wide variety of species. Bluefish at North Head, Bondi, Yellow Rock at Malabar, Doughboy at Kurnell, Rosa Gully at Diamond Bay and Turimetta Head near Warriewood all attracted large numbers of fish and fishermen. When conditions permitted, plenty of fishermen, using all types of gear, tried their luck in the 'discoloured' water. Most of the time, at least a couple of species would be on the bite and throwing a bait into the brown or 'opaque-green' water would result in catching something. Trevally, Bream. Drummer, Tailor and really large Luderick were caught every week and for the 'specialists' Kingfish and Mulloway. In fact, both Bluefish at North Head and Bondi Murk were known as the biggest producers of Mulloway anywhere in Sydney. The abundance of prey combined with the dark water and permanent 'berley-trail' coming from the outlets provided a happy hunting ground for the big silver fish. My regular spot was the Mattens, situated just over a km north of Bondi Murk. Due to the danger and difficulty in climbing down, only about a dozen guys fished there on a weekly basis and we never had to contend with the sometimes really large crowds at the Murk. The daytime Mattens fishers usually concentrating on Luderick, live-baiting or 'cunje' fishing for Bream, Drummer and Groper. Night fishing was all about Bream and Tailor, with big Snapper and the mighty Mulloway also on the fishing menu when the conditions were right. As for the night -time Mulloway, the 'right' conditions came about whenever the sea was really calm as the prime fishing area would almost always have at least a few swells washing over during the peak time of high tide and this spot faced southeast, leaving those drifting a live bait out under an illuminated cork vulnerable to swells coming in from their left hand/eastern side. Usually, we only 'braved it' at high tide when there were at least 3 of us and the sea was quiet and calm, as it was about a 20 metre run to safety if a bigger swell rolled in. Before anyone says we were mad fishing a spot such as this, bare in mind we were already 'mad' climbing a 160+ metre cliff in the first place. If you did get hit at the live-bait spot by a bigger than usual wave and knocked off your feet, there was no chance of getting washed in, at worst you'd end up in "the lake", a gently sloping, large tidal pool that was open to the ocean about 40-50 metres further north. A worse fate was going for a 'slide' over a small section covered in barnacles- their open tops are unforgiving on skin. Taking this into account, low tide was a much safer option, albeit in no way as productive as high tide in this location, as the Mulloway were usually in pretty close- within about 15 metres of the rocks. Daytime fishing the same spot used to produce plenty of Bonito and heaps of Kingfish on both lures and live bait, but only rare Mulloway, even at the peak time of full high tide. Generally, until the sun had vanished well over the cliff in the later afternoon, there was only a slim chance of a Mulloway hitting the strategically positioned live offering. Kingfish were the main culprits for snatching live bait, which was fine by most of the guys, personally I absolutely love catching them. Other than the dawn and to a lesser extent dusk, the run out tide was the time that produced the most 'genuine' strikes. Genuine meaning the fish would 'go-on' with the bait, rather than rip the cork under and race off with it, only to drop it. This was a fairly common occurrence that became very frustrating on some days, when no matter what 'tricks' we used, getting a hook-up was almost impossible. However, there was one factor which always lead to a completely different 'dynamic' at the Mattens- the incoming of the discoloured water from Bondi Murk. For this to happen, a southeasterly wind needed to be blowing to push the very distinct mass of cloudy/brown water right in to the rocks. The optimum conditions came when you were already fishing and a light southeasterly would start up, it would usually take around 45 minutes for the murk to travel up to where we were. Initially, on arrival, the water looked a strange 'opaque-green' colour, with the wash from the swell against the rocks an unusual creamy colour. You could only see about a foot into it. As this visually distinct, new water started to come in closer towards the rocks, the fishing changed dramatically. First thing that happened was the Luderick which were usually in pretty large numbers out off this section and would be generally 30-40 metres out from the rocks, would come right in to within a couple of metres out, which made them a much easier proposition to get as you kept your float in close- no need for the long drift any more. Next, Tailor that had seemingly been non-existent would 'boil-up' and be seen chasing bait around on the surface. Bream and big Black Drummer would come on the bite if you fished 'straight-down' close to the edge. Yellowtail, the mainstay of live-baiting and sometimes hard to get enough of, would all of a sudden become abundant only a foot or two below the surface, right up in a tight corner and you could literally 'pole' them out one after another. Then, once the discoloured water had come right in and changed from opaque-green to full on brown, the Mulloway and Kingfish would be on the prowl and readily take our live yellowtail. All of the live bait guys used Alvey reels when chasing Kingfish and Mulloway, In my opinion the "E' series 650 and 651 are the best rock live baiting reels ever made, with a great drag and the handles mounted on the spool instead of the 'cross-plate'. There is no better reel for this style of fishing, as often towards the end of the fight and particularly when washing large fish up with the swell there is the need to either let go or more commonly give no line at all in these crucial moments. This just can't be done with a spinning reel, however, it could be argued "thumb-locking" an overhead would still have the necessary "give no" effect. If after Tuna however, there is no comparison to an overhead, no argument there. Loaded with 48-60lb mono(Weiss Perlon, Schneider and Tortue the ONLY choices!) and we all used 81/2-91/2 foot rods built on 9 wrap blanks or cut-down heavy surf rods. The rig was a running bobby cork, ball sinker at least the size of a 10c coin, large swivel and about 5 to 6 ft of same line down to either 1 or 2 7/0 to 10/0 double strength suicide(octopus) hooks. This was set anywhere from 5 to 9 metres deep, depending on sea and tide. If yakkas were hard to come by, I always started out with them down around 8 metres, so as to miss the Bonito and Tailor that were usually encountered fishing the shallower depths. When the murk came right in, leaving your live-bait close in was the way to go as the big fish would be in close, using the murky water as cover, often hunting right along the edge. Perhaps this was why Pike, which were usually plentiful along the edge, were nowhere to be seen when the murk came in. In addition to willingly taking the bait under the cover of the murk, Kingfish in particular, would often take the yellowtail and move off really slowly, which was in direct contrast to their normal 'hit and run' method of attack. My own theory for this is simply that after surprising and swallowing a baitfish they were immediately on the lookout for another one, while the ambush conditions were made to order. Testament to this was on checking stomach contents, there were already other very recently eaten yellowtail. As previously mentioned, Tailor would often 'come on' when the murk arrived and throwing a pilchard, garfish, or a slab of Tailor often provided a few quick captures of these fast moving aggressive fish. Plenty of times, someone fishing for them in this manner would hook a Mulloway, often within a few seconds of the bait sinking close to a visual 'boil', showing that they were certainly hunting actively near the surface as well. In hindsight, a live Tailor or large slab of one could have been used. If the wind eased off, the murk would slowly move back out from the rocks and once well out again, the fishing would soon be as it was before the murk arrived. This of course meant that the Mulloway were gone again and any strike on a live yakka was most likely a Kingfish or stray Tailor. The usual Bonito didn't seem to like the dirty water, which usually was the top 8-10 ft of the water column. Another feature of this murk water was that if in a boat, you could troll lures along the edge of the colour change and pick up all sorts of different species. Trevally in particular were easily observed sitting all along the edge of the 'murk-line' and were easily hooked on small lures and especially white 'firetail' flies and 'Canada' jigs, with the schools sometimes spread all along the coast until the 'cloud' of water thinned out. When the deep ocean outfalls were opened in 1990 and the 'murk' started being released about 3 km offshore, I wonder if the great schools of all these fish, especially the Mulloway simply moved out there also? In 2015 Sydney Water released a report on the impact of marine life around the deep outfalls, which concluded that minimal (if any) impact had been recorded on the species studied, and also that 'great populations' of fish had been observed in the waters adjacent to the new(then) outfalls. Do any other Raiders have experience fishing close to the deep ocean outfalls off Bondi, Bluefish or Malabar? I'd be interested to find out!

What a nice bunch of blokes! Enjoyed meeting everyone and lunch also. Confident all the lures are in the right hands. Look forward to seeing pictures of them hanging off the jaws of intended species! Thanks for organizing a good event!

I'm nearly 57 and my first two rods were both Jarvis Walker's- a "Swansea" 3 piece 9 foot Blackfish and a "Burnie Deluxe" 2 piece 5 and a half foot "all purpose"(ha!)- still have the Burnie Deluxe. Cast the tip section of the Swansea off with a lure in amongst a huge school of Tailor next to Fort Denison and a blasted Tailor bit the lure off only a couple of feet from the hire-boat. I was devastated

Hi Flatheadluke Frank kindly offered to pick me up so I'm coming as well. Look forward to meeting everyone. See you Sunday Cheers Waza

G'day Loomesy the Black Queen and Black Queen Deluxe were very popular as estuary Luderick rods mainly used in NSW by boat Luderick fisho's in the 60's-70's. They were also popular with Trout fishermen who fished with bait as they are super slow taper and very soft tipped. The Deluxe had "Aqua-lite" guides which were 'revolutionary' at the time as they provided a much smoother and 'friction-free' surface for the line to run over. From memory, a few variations came out, some had a full set of Aqua-lite guides and tip, others only had an Aqua-lite stripping guide and chromed guides. You could fish with 4lb line on them and find it difficult to break through the rod, hence their popularity as an 'off-the-rack' Luderick(Blackfish in those days!) rod. All those old Jarvis Walker Solid Glass Rods were so well constructed(materials -wise) they'll probably still be just as useful in another 50 years time as they're virtually indestructible. Great that you have a nice conditioned one, it's a piece of our 'fishing heritage' and would be fun to use with a centre-pin for Luderick. Mullet or Garfish. Cheers Waza

I'm not really a braid/superline enthusiast preferring to use mono for most types of fishing other than lures and deep-sea bait fishing but am impressed at the fineness and long casting of Gliss. It reminds me of Berkeley "Iron Silk" mono which is a good casting line

Hi Rob thanks for the detailed report, glad you are happy using it for the purpose you got it for, so far, I am too. I guess the test will come when a decent fish is on. Cheers Waza

G'day Foxxy and thanks for your input. Yes it is amazingly thin and casts really well. I still build a few rods and have lately been playing around with the new "airwave" guide system from the U.S.A which utilizes a series of really small (ALL size 7) single leg guides that lead down to a higher framed size 10 then the actual airwave stripper which is roughly a 25 with a secondary 10mm guide attached to the tip side of the stripper, it's an unusual looking configuration, but the Yanks reckon it minimizes guide wrap while allowing (they claim) an approximate 25-30% increase in casting distance. The 'system' certainly allows a closer-to-the-blank more dynamic curve which produces the 'true' active curve of the blank. The computer imagery seems to back up their claims and for this reason I thought they looked worth a try on their recommended 7-8 foot blanks. Haven't used them enough yet for a better appraisal. Thanks again for the reply Cheers Waza

Cool be interested to hear what you think. Cheers Waza

I'm with you Baz, that's the best (only rig!) for just about everything on the rocks(bar live baiting)and with an Alvey the only way to go. I fear that Alvey fishermen are now a dying breed

G'day Rob yes that's the stuff, although I'm using it on sand/mud bottom I wondered about it's durability/abrasion resistance. Have you been using it very long?

Hi Neil I originally bought a 150 metre spool of 11 kg for a top-up on a 50 size baitrunner to use for night-time live bait-bobby corking down the bay. Wanted something thinner than mono as a long cast is needed at high tide in this location, normally don't fish as heavy but this spot has plenty of moored boats and the schoolies normally head straight for the anchor lines and you either turn them within 30-40 metres or you lose them. The lines structure seems more like a super thin mono even though it's of fibre construction, the manufacturers call it 'monotex' and in feel it's very similar to Berkley's "Iron Silk" mono which I've always enjoyed using (albeit in the 4lb and 6lb classes) as it travels over the guides really well. Gliss 11 kg is only .18 mm which in mono terms used to equate to 5-6 lb so it's super thin. Seems to knot easily also using hangman's- so far no slipping under load. Was so impressed at it's 'castability' that I bought a 300 metre spool of 6 kg for general spinning and it's diameter is a ridiculous .12 mm which is almost too thin for my 'degenerating' eyesight! Reason I'm asking everyone's opinion of it is mainly to see what Raiders think of it in terms of abrasion resistance/durability compared to other super fine lines. As I'm only really using this particular reel for the one purpose of corking at night , I don't want to use braid. Rob81 has already posted(and thanks Rob for your input) that although strong it frays very easily. Cheers mate Waza

Greetings Raiders I just got some "Gliss" line to try as an alternative to braid, gel spun, copolymer etc. Can't believe how small a diameter it is compared to other super lines. Was wondering what others using it thought of it? Thanks Waza

Well done on the pigs- try using chicken pellets(layer pellets) for burley, just soak them in a bucket of water until they break down and you'll have them swimming around in view

Hi Jake18 what type of tackle do you have? Darling Point, Rose Bay, Watsons Bay and Parsley Bay have wharves and there are land based spots at Hermitage Reserve, Neilson Park(both ends) Camp Cove and just south of Lady Jane beach that are all easily accessed- depends on what you're after. This time of year the most likely species you'll encounter from the shore are Bream, Trevally, Leatherjackets, Squid, Luderick and Tailor, with the occasional Salmon, John Dory and Flathead. If you are fishing the wharves use no lead and reasonably light line(no more than 4kg) if chasing Bream and Trevally. For the best chance of success use burley to arouse the interest of whatever is around. A simple but effective wharf burley is a loaf of white bread crushed right up in 2/3 of a bucket of water. To this you add a capful of Tuna or Pilchard oil and any bait-scraps to give it 'substance'. If you don't have any oil, a small tin of tuna, sardines or 'fishy' cat food will do. Just flick a couple of 'tablespoon' sized scoops out when you arrive and then try to keep a very light 'trail' going to bring any surrounding fish to where you are. Best of luck Waza