wazatherfisherman

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G'day Volitan over the years I've tried different vege's looking for a useable substitute for weed with no success. Didn't think to try the peas though. I've often wondered if any of the greens available in Asian supermarkets would be worth a try. I listed my alternative baits under the topic of "Night time Luderick and Surgeons" by Fishraider Kracka

A few years ago, while looking for prawns and tiny squid at Battersea Park in Abbotsford we netted 2 Blue Ring's in one night and about a week later prawning near Dobroyd Aquatic club in Five Dock we got another one. Until then I'd only considered them something that lived in close proximity to the open ocean as I've seen them a few times when looking for bait crabs. I was really surprised to see them that far up the Parramatta River

The Snapper spot is pretty safe as it's high and well back in the bay, a long way from the ocean front. It isn't a very big spot as there's bush around the perimeter of it, but can fish 3 or 4 guys. Yes the kingfish that lurk around the gulf are the biggest ones I've seen anywhere, as a fisherman, it's worth going there on flat days just to see one. October is the month to see the giants and a large pike caught on site the way to get "smoked" just leave it 1-2 metres deep inside the entrance and they will usually take it within sight, which is always exciting

G'day Jim yes I've had the tinned Aus Salmon and I didn't mind it- funny thing is, you couldn't pay me to cook a fresh one. We used to call them "4 doors down" or "round the corner fish" as the lesser known neighbours (that always pestered for extra fish) were usually given them and "Blurters" (Silver Trevally) No offence to anyone who likes them, especially our Kiwi brothers who really enjoy them. Ah the 'old days', you are so right about what has been lost, however I think fishers (particularly the young ones) have become SO much more aware of the environmental aspects of our sport that there is great hope for the longevity of our remaining stocks. Once upon a time, nobody would release a Mulloway for example, my understanding these days is that more are released than kept- which is fantastic. There are also heaps more fisho's that are sensitive to the safer handling of caught fish that are destined for return. Using the examples that PaddyT suggested- Salmon and Kingy's, which have both made HUGE 'comebacks' as a starting point, perhaps some of the other species will be able to recover also. Sydney Harbour prawns were also on the verge of 'extinction' with habitat destruction, sediment contamination and gross overfishing, but since the cessation of trawling in the harbour, they also have made an increased return. The prawn information came directly from a fisheries biologist who told me of his initial concern at the 'disappearance' of the wild stock- which he said were virtually extinct and then the relief that there were increasing numbers again only 3 years after the last allowable trawling in 2006. Bonito also seem to still be around in large numbers throughout the season, it's only about 4 years ago that there was a "school" of bonnies that started around the Opera house and went all the way throughout the lower reaches of the harbour and all along the coast from Barrenjoey to Jibbon they were so thick that getting 2 on the one deep-diving minnow was reasonably common. Examples such as this are heartening, however, having said all this, it is sometimes difficult to explain to newer or younger fishers how good it was less than 30 years ago, when you'd only rarely go fishing and return without your target species, especially Tailor. Regards Waza

G'day PaddyT totally agree with what you've said, these days it's almost like the Tailor and Salmon ratios have 'reversed'- where you used to get a bag of Tailor with a couple of Salmon, it seems common now that this is the other way round. The Salmon 'distribution' was thought to end as you say around Newcastle with the great spawning aggregations in Stockton Bight, catching them far north of there(to my knowledge) was not really a common occurrence. During the 1st week of the Sydney Olympics in 2000 I was beach fishing at Wooli north of Coffs Harbour with several mates from Murwillumbah who were keen beach fisho's. Standing on the top of the sand dune at the holiday-house front door, we spotted a single bird diving repeatedly in the wash-zone close to the beach, although we hadn't even unpacked most of the stuff in the cars, I raced down there with a handful of metals and bang, from the first (and every) cast, Salmon after Salmon. This greatly excited my Murwillumbah mates as they'd never caught or even encountered one before this. Over the next few years, they started catching Salmon, even up as far as Wooyung, which is only about 35km from the Qld border, so all of a sudden the 'distribution' changed? I reckon you're more on the money, with less comercial take of them and more efficient methods of commercial fishing, plus the wholesale slaughter that everybody took part in- we just didn't realise- that the Tailor numbers have dropped so alarmingly over the last 20 years.

Narrabeen is a good option, if you go to the spot past the aquatic reserve you need safety gear ie: plates- it's an easy climb down the natural gully. A couple of spots in the harbour you could try this time of year are East Balmain wharf of a night and pier 2 at Walsh Bay. Closer to the heads you could try the flat ledges between Lady Jane beach and Camp Cove- you fish with bobby cork along there or on the bottom or weightless at Balmain and pier 2. Hope this helps and best of luck. Cheers Waza

Hi JewCraze not sure what happens to them after they leave Fraser Island area, but can tell you that the Sydney Metropolitan Division fishing clubs annual estuary championships used to be held in May and the rock championships were held in mid to late June/ early July. The significance of this to your question is that these dates were always selected to coincide with the largest volume of fish movement/abundance. Well before the days of bag limits, these comps ran from 3pm Saturday until about 1-2pm Sunday, if you didn't get at least a couple of hundred Tailor, you wouldn't run in the top 30 fishers, so great was the volume of and abundance of Tailor. They are still around in numbers, albeit lesser in size, from my experience until about August. Hairtail fishers usually catch plenty throughout the winter also and I've seen some really big ones caught by guys fishing for big Mulloway also through this time. Smiths Creek is worth trolling for large Tailor in July early August for example.They used to re-appear around end of November in larger numbers, but there always seem to be a few that don't for whatever reason do the migration thing. Cheers Waza

I'm not suggesting going for a kingy at the gulf- they are usually just too damn big! It's worth going there on Westerly flat days in October just to see one. After repeatedly getting busted up by them(at this spot) One of my mates and I came up with a way (we thought) that we'd be able to land one of the gulf kings- we both used 25kg outfits and tied both lines to a solid ring, then a single leader and 2x 10/0 seamaster hooks (about $7 each hook) put a 1kg live pike under a white bobby cork set 2 metres deep only a couple of metres out from the ledge in the front of the gulf. What happened next was comical to all who watched. One of the usual giant green monsters 'ambled' over and did a lap around the pike which came to the surface and tried to "play dead"- the kingy wasn't fooled and did a second slow, close lap of the floating Pike before inhaling it right on the surface less than 3 metres from where we stood- cool instant hook-up! WRONG!! Bloody thing tore off towards the reef out front (about 50 metres out) and nearly pulled both of us in! We were both experienced LBG addicts and have caught them up to 20 kg, but experience counted for nothing and the fish took the expensive hooks, plus left about 30 metres of shredded line, and left us both shaking and stunned, It was an embarrassing moment in my fishing life, as all the other LBG guys were in stitches and we felt like 1st- timers. Not long after this happened we went out in the boat and sounded around out the front of the gulf- there are heaps of boulders and pointy looking hard reef everywhere. After discovering this, LBG at the gulf was off the menu, though we still spun there and caught heaps of squid-it's a great spot for them also. A word of warning if you go to the area- North Curracurrang point is another good and popular spot that is reasonably high out of the water with 'enticing' looking southerly ledges and an eastern front that sits both high and well out seawards. There is an "Angel ring" there (unless removed by vandals) as it is an extremely nasty spot to get out from should you go in and we have seen giant waves crash over the whole point (from our Snapper spot- which is always safe) The last Snapper trip, I had to call Water Police who patched me in to Westpac helicopter, when a fisherman was washed off Nth and to cut a long story short, sadly drowned. Better off giving Nth Curra a miss, regardless of what others may say- just my opinion. Go in the day, check the Snapper spot and semi-circular bay to familiarise the spot, then go for the walk to the gulf for a look and maybe a squid fish. As a matter of interest there is also a really beaut swimming hole about 50 metres up the creek at Curracurrang also, though sometimes in summer the area has litter from people too lazy to carry it out.

For sure! If it turns out they are there, catching (then eating) one is really satisfying especially on otherwise 'blown-out" winter days

G'day mate yes aniseed is good to add to any fishing bait or lure- just remember to bleed any fish you keep for eating before they die as sometimes the aniseed flavour can go into the flesh via the bloodstream. Old Luderick fishers sometimes added it to their weed if the fish were biting timidly and Luderick in particular were susceptible to the"aniseed weed" tainting. The smallest tin of Tuna or Sardines in either oil or brine are also good additives for dough that you can simply leave in your bag with the flour. A potato can also be used for yakka burley, you simply scrape it finely. Those birds-cormorants- are the ones the Chinese used for fishing, with a leash and collar they would catch the fish but be unable to swallow them and were then confiscated by their masters. They obviously swim underwater as well as a fish! I was glad you managed the bird that day as it was very determined to get the fish. Wondered why it didn't go for the other fish-Sweep- they call them 'Newcastle Bream'- maybe they aren't as tasty as the Mado's?!

Once you've eaten a fresh caught JD you'll become a Mado 'specialist' also! Anything that helps get a succulent Dory into the pan is worth doing! Qlder's rave about Red Emperor and Coral Trout, Vics and South Aussies of King George Whiting and Top-enders of Barra and Baldchin etc- I've eaten them all and I reckon Dory sit above the lot. The week before our Big Neil Dory trip they were selling fillets at my local fish shop for $55 kg and sold out in a few hours

Thanks that's an excellent tip!

G'day Baz the biggest Dory I've seen were caught at the Peak while live-baiting for Kingies down near the bottom using foot long yakkas, As for closer in, the biggest catch of them I ever saw was taken at The Colours, which isn't that far out off South Head. These were also caught while going for Kings, again fished close to the bottom. Best suggestion I can offer is to catch some mado's, hook them through the mouth and set them very close to the bottom at slack tide, high or low, as this is when they seem to be most active feeding. Once the tide starts moving again, they seem to lose interest. This is an observation from watching them swimming close to bait schools at Balmoral Beach in the harbour. When the tide was really close to high(I personally prefer high tide if planning a Dory trip) they stopped swimming and started "floating/sailing" with Dorsal fin extended and would then freely take whatever live bait presented- on several occasions I saw them bypass a yakka under a bobby cork to grab a Mado fished on the same rig, leader and depth, even though the yakka had tail clipped and was at closer range. By using Mado you probably won't get 'bothered' by as many other species and I personally reckon they are Dory's favourite as they've outfished yakkas almost every time I've seen them used. I have had a long running difference of opinion with a couple of my mates re Dory "preferring" Mado to yakka, they argue that the Mado are simply easier for JD to catch. My opinion is they eat them all the time, easier to catch or not. This has been based not just on observation, but by fish caught using both baits on same set-up, at same time. Have you ever put a live bait down deep at Mrs Murphy's? I've fished for Garfish at Shoal Bay quite a few times- there used to be a trawler the "Peter B" moored not far from the game fishing wharf and we used to go and anchor somewhere around it as there were always gars around there when we were there after Christmas(love eating those big gars!) and I reckon that the terrain there is similar to the bottom at Balmoral. Perhaps JD 'sneak around' there high tide in the early morning? Just berley up some bait schools and if JD are around it would be worthwhile. They are usually lurking around bait schools, so it seems logical they'd be at Mrs Murphy's- maybe nobody(or nobody lets on!)drops a live bait over there? I'd be very interested to hear how you go. Cheers Waza

I thought there had to be a better way than turning rocks over! I was going to ask on here if anyone knew a better/other method of getting them, so thanks Baz. Couple of guys reckon they've pumped them but I've never seen one pumped. Other than worms, pink nippers and soldier crabs the only other things I've seen pumped are those weird looking wormy things that look like an elongated 'nipple' on one end with about a foot long 'arm' on the other end. Got told they were mangrove worms- looked more like a plant than an animal

Hi Roger good advice re weed and shrimps- whenever I get weed I only take a handful or two as bag limit for Blackies over here is 10 now. When collecting shrimps at the lake I've caught some really interesting things in the net, 1 inch long Blackies, heaps of half inch leatherjacket, flounder as small as a 20c coin, tiny garfish etc. The lake has been closed a fair bit the last year also. Cheers Waza

Blackies love them, trouble is so does everything else! In Sydney, I reckon they'd probably be "safer" from other species if you put them under your float, same as shrimps. Most blokes have shaken their heads at me putting a shrimp on my hook instead of weed but I reckon that shrimps are the best bet after weed/cabbage. If you've been using Mona Vale pool weed and they aren't biting on that, they're a likely candidate on any of these other baits as that weed has always been revered by all the Luderick fishers I know- it has all the qualities you want and is usually the best weed in Sydney. Next time your out that way, spend 10 mins at Narrabeen and get some of those shrimps- the lake is usually teeming with them- and try them under your float, they take them aggressively and you can strike straight away. I still mainly fish with flatted snecks and they are an easy hook to use with shrimps

Hi Andrew they are ok for mullet if you're fishing in sandy type areas, yakkas are a different proposition though. As a kid fishing off Sydney wharves, I quickly discovered that coarse-ground mince(like hamburger mince) without much fat was the "supreme" yakka bait, followed by the dark or top half of the yakka's themselves, you just fillet the 1st one you get and use the flesh without skin(or you get too many choppers if they're around) If you used prawns,pillys or tuna you caught a lot more chopper tailor which were always a pest, often biting you off. To take a couple of prawns was always wise if you wanted to catch Mado's for Dory like the one that your "chicken" kept taking that day(interesting that it didn't go for the sweep also)-this of course doesn't really help with "long-life" emergency bait, but perhaps taking just a golfball sized blob of mince each time you go would be worthwhile as it can always be used for berley and is relatively inexpensive. Seagulls(and rats!) will also happily eat whatever mince is left. Another suggestion is to leave a really small airtight container in your bag with some plain white flour in it- a few drops of water would then give you dough which is good for yakkas, mullet(including bigger ones) and most baitfish bar Mados

Forgot to mention green nippers('pistol' prawns) shrimps and squirt worms- for those that don't know, squirties are smaller, thinner worms that are often found when pumping nippers and are usually 5-10 cm long, only 2-4 mm thick and have softer bodies than say a tube or bloodworm. They range in colour from light brown to red to green(green ones super soft) and you usually need to put a couple on much smaller gauge hooks to accommodate their thin body. From my experience all estuary fish love them including Luderick. As for green nippers, when I was out scrounging weed in the bays around Fivedock and Drummoyne I always managed to collect half a dozen to a dozen by turning rocks over in the mud along the shoreline- the nippers are sitting under the rocks that are in only a couple of mm's of water and reveal their presence by a movement in the muddy/cloudy water. They have a body composition like a prawn, with thin shell and similar colouration(lightish greeny-brown)but are more the shape of a freshwater yabby. These were highly prized as bait for Bream larger Whiting and also Luderick. A biggish one would be about 4 cm long, mostly they'd be in the 2-3 cm range As far as collecting them these days, you'd have to check local regulations re "defacing the foreshores" as a council ranger from Drummoyne council told me that it was no longer allowed. I've heard that in some locations they are pumped but have never got one myself when pumping nippers. Shrimps are also top bait when fishing places like Narrabeen lake, you simply substitute the shrimps for your usual weed bait, just put 2 on your hook on conventional float rig, however be prepared to catch plenty of other species as like squirties, most lake species will take them. I did really well with them at Narrabeen a couple of times while those using weed never got a down even though the Luderick were there in large numbers and bit freely on the shrimp. The shrimps are easily caught by pushing a prawn net through the weedy surrounds of coastal lakes and quickly moving your net out of the water as they are so small (1-2 cm) that they'll fall through the net- most are trapped with the weed you get in the net. My apologies Raiders for getting off track with this as Kracka's original query was re Luderick on weed at night, I just thought this extra information may be useful. Cheers Waza

G'day again if you look on ebay you will see dynabait make other products such as squid, occi, prawns, small sprats that look like whitebait and several other 'interesting' things for saltwater and various things for freshwater.We used to mix a can of Sardines in brine with our Bream 'pudding' though I doubt if used alone would stand up to casting any distance

G'day again, the same old fisho(Wally) I referred to re Snapper on Luderick gut, caught Luderick on conventional tackle and cabbage while we were still throwing out Pilchards and Gars for Tailor, when it was too dark to see your float properly. He showed us how to put a "3 layer streamer" on (about a 5 inch bait with the hook 1 inch from the bottom) Fishing fixed float in a wash with a strong pull, you just hold your rod up and keep a relatively tight line as your centrepin releases line- the take is similar to a Bream and it became a technique that I later used with great success when bobby-corking Luderick in the Mattens "lake", albeit in daylight hours. The Luderick would go off green in this location every year for around 4 weeks from the end of September to mid to late October when they were in full roe and we used to get them then with cunje and sometimes bread in the daytime or cunje and yabbies/fresh peeled green prawns at night. As Oldfella says you just go down hook size to a size 2- they run with the cunje just the same as a Bream does. Allan Skelton the legendary float maker from Bronte gave me a float that was a "leftover" from an order he made for someone which had a tube to put a cyalume stick in it-it was made for Luderick The evidence for them feeding on green at night in the harbour comes from having local weed patches where we'd been getting our bait completely "disappear' between dusk when we'd left and dawn on re-arrival. The fish were there and we caught them fishing shallow(about 6 ft) just a few metres from where the weed had been growing. A whole patch about 4 x 6 metres of beautiful weed would be gone on the one large high tide during the night. Also caught them at Yamba on the middle wall night fishing for Bream with bloodworms and peeled prawns plenty of times

G'day Andrew have you tried the dehydrated worms? They are available in Bloodworm, Sandworm and Tubeworm and can be kept in your fishing bag for really long periods of time, when you want to use them just take some out and rehydrate in water for about 5-10 mins. I've always got a couple of packs in my bag and while no substitute for fresh bait, can either 'pad-out' whatever you do have or be used when fresh isn't available. I've caught Bream, Whiting and Flatties on them when the fresh stuff has run out- keeps you fishing! I reckon the "Sandworm" works best - they are marketed under the brand name "dynabait" and are available in stores in Sydney as well as ebay. The same company make other baits like prawns, squid etc but I haven't tried them, only the worms. I also salt(make sure you use cooking or butchers salt NOT iodized salt) Bonito and Frigate fillets when I get them and find if you keep lightly salting them as Ron said above and keep changing the newspaper they're on until no more fluid comes out and become leathery that they also last for ages out of the fridge and can simply be put back in- just make sure they are well sealed. Cheers Waza

I've still got a 6/1 "Major" that's going to my mates private 'fishing museum' at Murwillumbah(he's a collector and has quite a few 'Scapes' in Major, Minor and different spool colours) as it became outdated and for years parts were really hard to find. I've also got a Silaflex FT70 with the aluminium extension butt they came with. It's cut down at both ends and was made to match a 4/0 Senator for LBG. It's a real shame that blanks like them (and Sportex) are no longer made, they really handled the harsh treatment of getting down the cliffs. As a matter of interest, Two of the pioneers of jigging('vertical spinning' they originally called it) - Joe Ritchie and Ron Lance both used 6/1 Majors out at the Peak for years, catching so many kings that the club(AFA) had to re-vamp the club competition. I tried jigging there with my Scape but found I often had it drop back into free spool, so replaced it with a Daiwa Sealine

It's the intestinal tract you use, the more weed in it the better! Good for many varieties of fish. Don't know how well it goes after being frozen, but is excellent when used fresh

The Luderick, Reds or Kingy's?!!