Bashir Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 A few questions about spiral wraps... I have used them before bottom bashing and found them pretty good, never owned one and don't intend to in the near future but all the same.... one disadvantage I can see to a spiral wrap rod is that they are really only effective when fighting fish straight ahead of you or right underneath, pulling your rod sideways to control an annoying stubborn fish that has just gone for the outboard would kind of put the whole spiral theory down the drain wouldn't it? Lets say I am fishing at the back of the boat on the sport side and my fish makes a run for the starboard side of the boat, the rod is spiral wrapped to the right since I reel right handed.... surely this would be a very awkward situation and the advantages of the sprial wrap when fighting a fish would be dispelled?? How do they effect casting distance or even accuracy?? I suppose they wouldn't pose much of a hinderence with smaller type baitcaster style rods because of the lack of line slap on the rod, but lets say you are casting heavy weights or you have a sprial surf rod casting big baits.... a spiral wrap is designed to reduce or remove the torque that is present that threatens to twist the rod around during a fight, wouldn't that torque still be present during a cast? When the cast is unloaded, wouldn't it twist and then untwist the rod hideously! I have had this thought for a couple of years now and I tested it recently on a surf rod blank with tapped guides, an abu 7000 and a 65gm raider, on every cast most of the guides twisted right around the blank, especially in the tip area. Now doesn't the fact that this happens prove that there is excessive force placed on these guides by the line, surely that would reduce casting distance? The guides were tapped on fairly solid too with electrical tape, not masking tape. I may be wrong, but these are just thoughts I've had about these rods. Anybody care to pose any other theories or experiences with these rods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XTR Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 your right distance is lost on bigger rods set up as a spiral ,the torque that is twisting the blank during a cast is not as much , this you would think could help in setting up a big cast, in tests we did to achieve greater distance, casts were down on a blank set up in spiral ,the same blank with standed guide placement along were a good 20% longer , the blanks used were blue marlin 440 /4 1 piece . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Saqa Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 (edited) Checkout this link. There is a massive amount of info and discussion here on spirals. Also do a search for bumper or simple spiral which is a variation on the spiral config http://www.rodbuilding.org/search.php?2,se...hor=1,subject=1 Edited September 11, 2006 by Saqa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danielinbyron Posted September 11, 2006 Share Posted September 11, 2006 ">?????? whats a spiral rap.... does that entail the guides being put out of line.. if so doesn't that mean there off the spine of the blank ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashir Posted September 12, 2006 Author Share Posted September 12, 2006 ok so I take it there is nobody on this site besides leigh with an opinion on spiral wraps and how they work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharky Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Theres over 2000 members Bashir and only 200 have viewed the thread so far. Give it some time champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wettingaline Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 ok so I take it there is nobody on this site besides leigh with an opinion on spiral wraps and how they work? I think it is because not that many people have used a spiral wrap thats why no many people have an opinion Bashir, i am always interested in new great idea's to revolutionize fishing, Rohit designed and made a nice 24kg spiral wrap, live bait/bottom bash rod for me (which you have probs seen posted) and i will let you know how it performs as soon i use it....by the feel of just setting the drag on my reel with it feels awsome, i cant wait to use it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jewel Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Im guessing not a lot of people on the site have seen one let alone tried one Bash! I have have limited experience with them and dont really see them to be revolutionary, in the light gear where you normally seem to find them I cant see the torsional force really being that great to spin the rod in my hand (got a 10kg baitcast barra rod that doesnt give me any grief with this). Although there may be cause to use a spiral to limit the number of guides on the rod so as to keep the action crisp. I think that the casting issue needs to be looked at as well. I cant see a spiral being anything but a hinderance in casting as the line is changing directions in multiple planes and to my way of thinking that has to rob you of some distance. The only place that I can see them to be of any advantage is perhaps in jig or troll rods and some other specialised applications where casting is not an issue and there may be some rotation of the rod. Although I must admit not having tried a spiral in large gear From a purely physics related speculation, I dont really see how the runners could provide enough of a lever to cause the rod to spin. I would suggest that the weight of a game reel is more than likely the culprit and that a gimbal belt fixes that anyway. I have been trialing a luderick rod wrapped in spiral (dont ask why, but its got good wank value) it seems to work very nicely in keeping the action of the blank from getting soggy with multiple runners and the only concern that I have is that the guides seem far more susceptable to damage as they poke out all over the shop and cant be pointed out of harms way in the rod racks. Personally I am not a fan if for nothing else but it shits me to look down a rod where the runners are not gun barrel straight (or were when it was built). There seems to be plenty of fans of them out there, but then again plenty of people like Fosters too! Not necessarily saying this is bad......... but not the path I chose to walk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefish Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 where does the spine go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danielinbyron Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 where does the spine go? yeah mate that was my unanswered question and do carbon fibre rods even have spines.... was my other.... i'm heading in the other direction... my goal is to catch a jew on an alvey with a home made feather jig ,. on an old schneider glass 7144 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jewel Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Hard core old school Daniel! Go nuts son!! Look forward to the pics!!!!! Dont upset the missus when you start chopping bits off broom handles! Every blank has a spine. Im not sure where you would locate it for a spiral, I would guess that you would build it normally, but happy to have clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danielinbyron Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Hard core old school Daniel! Go nuts son!! Look forward to the pics!!!!! Dont upset the missus when you start chopping bits off broom handles! Every blank has a spine. Im not sure where you would locate it for a spiral, I would guess that you would build it normally, but happy to have clarification. mate i've been goin hard for a while....got on to the great feathers and jig heads...feather 3.50 a bag makes about six big and two small lures .... deisigning my own head but buying old school ones for a dollar fifty.. .now i thought that the spine was an ease in one directictin caused by gravity in the fibre glass blank making process..i've watched rod makers locate the spine by holding the tip lightly and letting the rod find its point of least resistance.... holding it at an angle to the ground that is... its late .. it seems i'm making even less sense than usual... but i'll persist.. i thought carbon fibre rods were an entirely different story and were the same in fact perfectly even woven carbon fiber in all directions.. mate i've always said it "allot of those old guys know how to catch a fish.." ps she got the shits today when we had the game rods out getting respooled and the scales setting the drags in the living room... we stopped shrt of tying one up around the dogs collar and throwing a tennis ball down the stairs.. desperate men in fowl weather.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Saqa Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Hi guys If I told you how I treat the spine I would be lynched. How about Instead I build some baitcast rods with identical blanks and butt config and the spine located in various positions including one with guides in spiral config. We can then have some sort of a social or casting session and record the results and publish it on this site. This should provide some real world evidence and would be better then any claims and opinions. Bear with me on this as I have a very heavy workload but I will keep you all updated with my progress through this thread. This would be a great addition to the casting workshop social and will become demo rods for my brand whenever these questions come up. How about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inked Posted September 12, 2006 Share Posted September 12, 2006 Hi guys If I told you how I treat the spine I would be lynched. How about Instead I build some baitcast rods with identical blanks and butt config and the spine located in various positions including one with guides in spiral config. We can then have some sort of a social or casting session and record the results and publish it on this site. This should provide some real world evidence and would be better then any claims and opinions. Bear with me on this as I have a very heavy workload but I will keep you all updated with my progress through this thread. This would be a great addition to the casting workshop social and will become demo rods for my brand whenever these questions come up. How about it? good stuff Rohit, sounds like a great idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest danielinbyron Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 the identical blanks cast/off sounds good ...just trying to think of what other paces you could put them through to get some hard data .. ie stress on blank, guides or line and how that could be accurately measured probably best in a workshop.... might need to get myth busters on it...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluefin Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 LONG LIVE THE 7144 Howard. ( Alvey Lover ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XTR Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 (edited) saga as you would know to well there is so much to be achieved by such a compression ,over the years Ive looked at getting the most out of a blank when it comes to distance and the best way is just that have two blanks the same and just keep working on them with placement until you start to go backwards . With this line of testing its best done over time with different hands on as well ,as with distance there is a lot of reasons for better cast so you have to work thru them slowly thru the different conditions . Thru this method Ive been able to get 4 mts rods with stright 8 lbs braid (no leader) with 75 grams of lead past the 237 meters on a distance casting court as this gear is not full blown tournament casting gear its well balanced up market fishing gear , i think you will be on a winner with a spiral comparaison . Leigh Edited September 13, 2006 by Leigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Target Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 ok so I take it there is nobody on this site besides leigh with an opinion on spiral wraps and how they work? Because the people that have experience on these matters have been banned for talking about their experience and knowledge. Leigh as he stated has experimented with spirals, but more so on a casting point of view than fighting a fish. Hi guys If I told you how I treat the spine I would be lynched. How about Instead I build some baitcast rods with identical blanks and butt config and the spine located in various positions including one with guides in spiral config. We can then have some sort of a social or casting session and record the results and publish it on this site. This should provide some real world evidence and would be better then any claims and opinions. Bear with me on this as I have a very heavy workload but I will keep you all updated with my progress through this thread. This would be a great addition to the casting workshop social and will become demo rods for my brand whenever these questions come up. How about it? No Saqa, it wouldnt surprise me, lots of different opinions in rod building, some say ignore, some build on the visible spine so that the mug buyer doesnt see a curve in the rod when they pick it up in the shop (blanks quite often have a slight kink in them, and this does not line up with the 'spine'). Look at fly fishing, some think about using the spine for the power in the back, OR the fore cast, some for strength/stiffnes in the fight. As to casting distances between spiral baitcasters (light) and identiacal blanks - I have made that comparison myself, and like leigh, I got slightly less distance - BUT it was only around 5% less, and that was spiral baicast compared with a spin reel with 7gr cast weights. I have been trialing a luderick rod wrapped in spiral (dont ask why, but its got good wank value) it seems to work very nicely in keeping the action of the blank from getting soggy with multiple runners and the only concern that I have is that the guides seem far more susceptable to damage as they poke out all over the shop and cant be pointed out of harms way in the rod racks. ????? WTF Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsswordfisherman Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Just a little off topic here regarding Target's response. No member is banned from this forum for sharing their knowledge or experience. This is ALWAYS welcomed and the admin of this site openly welcome our new members every week with this very sentiment. People are however banned for breaching site rules. A link is posted here for those of you that have not read them. http://www.fishraider.com.au/Invision/inde...showtopic=13628 These forums are run with a zero tolerance to persons that breach site rules particularly those whose only intent is to cause fights and arguements. The members join fishraider because they see that this does not occur here. I know you agree with me here Target as evidenced by a post from you Secondly, Fishraider is a great fishing forum - like people say, its open with its advice, friendly, no sh#t gets discussed and people dont tend to flame or hide behind nicks (OK my nick is not my name, but more people know me by that name than my real name which is below). Thats the way we like it, thats the way the moderators keep it - BIG THUMBS UP MODS As far as supressing freedom of speech - this is a private forum - you must be a member, and the mods keep it civil to keep a good feeling on the site. If I want useless arguments I will go to those BIG fishing sites and read topics on wether to call a certain fish goodoo or cod, and the rules on fishing for xyz species using abc branded gear. I dont want those discussions, nor do most people here and thats why fishraider is great. 90% of the topics are fishing related Just my two cents worth Adrian Now back to the topic as I am off for a fish Cheers mrsswordfisherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Target Posted September 13, 2006 Share Posted September 13, 2006 Just a little off topic here regarding Target's response. No member is banned from this forum for sharing their knowledge or experience. This is ALWAYS welcomed and the admin of this site openly welcome our new members every week with this very sentiment. People are however banned for breaching site rules. A link is posted here for those of you that have not read them. http://www.fishraider.com.au/Invision/inde...showtopic=13628 These forums are run with a zero tolerance to persons that breach site rules particularly those whose only intent is to cause fights and arguements. The members join fishraider because they see that this does not occur here. I know you agree with me here Target as evidenced by a post from you Now back to the topic as I am off for a fish Cheers mrsswordfisherman Mrs Swordfishermon With all due respects, and so everyone else reading this understands the above quotation - it was dated November 2005. Almost 12 months ago. I gave my thumbs up to the moderating team at that time. Since that time, moderators have left, ownership has changed, sponsors changed, and a lot of different member have come in, and many gone. Moderation of members and thier posts, and the loss of members and moderators who have helped this site gain the reputation that it had, has left topics like this without many people who have the experience to comment and add advice. That is what I am saying. Regards Adrian If you as moderators choose to moderate this post, kindly remove reference to the old and outdated quotation in the above post. Please also note, I have read and understand the site rules - 1 to 15 plus ammendments. This post does not breech any of those site rules and would be bitterly dissapointed if it was ammended in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsswordfisherman Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Thanks for the reply Target. We in fact were the moderators at that time. Not too much has changed at fishraider except that it has had phenomenal growth and we believe that we do all we can to keep the members happy. Sponsors have not changed, in fact 4 have been added in the last 6 months. If in fact you are a member with experience then by all means share your knowledge on spiral wraps. Lets keep on topic. Your are welcome to pm me if you have any further issues to discuss. mrsswordfisherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etay Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Bashir raises some valid concerns, esp. regarding casting and pressure on the guides. my understanding of a properly wrapped spiral is that the line should only ever touch the bottom or top of the guide when there is tension in the line. So when the guides were pushed to the top of the rod upon casting, my only explanation is that one fo the guides was not "properly" placed, and once it got pushed up, the others were sure to follow. How to place the guides "properly"? That is a question worth addressing. I hope to build a spiral in the near future and have done a great deal of thinking, so if anyone has any good ideas, I would be glad to hear (read) them. As for decreasing distance, I can see this being a problem throwing light jig heads around, but the energy lost from friction when casting a 65 g raider would probably be negligible. As for a fish changing direction near/under the boat, I can't see that twisting a spiral. A spiral should have at least 1/2 the guides placed in-line directly under the blank, so the majority of the force should directly be under the blank, pulling the rod down, just like a spinning rod. The ONLY disadvantage I see from spirals (apart from not placing guides correctly), is that because the line has to transtion from top to bottom, the "transition" guides to NOTHING for loading the rod in a "uniform" manner. The only purpose of these guides is to keep the line off the blank and ensure the transition. To imagine taking away two or more guides from a properly wrapped rod. What does that do? It places a greater strain on the next guide down, leading to an unequally loaded blank. Because this happend close to the butt, the blank should be strong enough to handle the extra pressure. Once again, I use the work SHOULD. I will let you know how my spiral goes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jewel Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 Adrian, The idea of an over head luderick rod is one that I had been toying with since the 80s, really just for something different to a centerpin. Threadlines are not pleasant to fish with running out floats so a small baitcaster was a logical choice. When I picked up a rod off Saqa,, while we were chatting the topic came up, low and behold the little bugger whips one out of his rack that he had made quite some time ago!! He has been kind enough to lend it to me and I must say despite It being a spiral (which as I posted before, I am not overly keen on) it performs very nicely and in this case it would seem that the spiral is quite effective in keeping the number of runners to a minimum on a soft blank. Cheers Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BBM Rick Posted September 14, 2006 Share Posted September 14, 2006 (edited) low and behold the little bugger whips one out Edited September 14, 2006 by BBM Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashir Posted September 14, 2006 Author Share Posted September 14, 2006 why wouldnt you just use a small baitrunner instead of an overhead, they work in the exact same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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