Kingiekup Round 4 Middle Harbour 28th/29th

[kingiemaster]

Hi all,

Sunday 28th

Got up early again on Sunday morning for Round 4 of the KingieKup and headed off to the Spit to get some squid for Kings.

Conditions were perfect.

Jigged up nine squid within hour.

To sum up we tried amost every spot in Middle harbour for zilch. Actually went hoem with several live squid in the esky. Couldn't give them away!

Didn't even see any sign of fish on the sounder nor reports from anyone else we ran into.

Monday 29th -FINALLY SOME ACTION

John had the day off and went for a fish with another fishing mate of ours while I went to work with the rest of us mugs.

They more or less replicated what we did on Sunday morning only this time they were witness to Kings where ever they went. In complete contrast to Sunday they had activity under and around the boat and on the sounder. Balls of baitfish also filled the sounder constantly.

Apparently the Kings weren't hanging around a long at each spot but could be found the further and further up Middle Harbour they went as the tide came in suggesting that this was a big school of rats.

As it turned out they managed to bring in a couple at the Spit at first light going 65 and 68cm's. They couldn't stay connected to several other hits encounted in the other spots but at least they finally saw some action.

Now, either I am having a run of bad luck coming up fishless the last 4 sessions or the school rats have finally moved into the harbour for the baitfish/squid feast holiday season.

Fortunately John's effort yesterday doesn't count towards point for the coveted KingieKup. (not that I am worried, I always win it)

Wish it was Friday!! Bring it on.

Dave

[sanger]

Good to see they were around on monday!!! a day late for me to!!!!! Where you guys out in the boat with the aussie flag on it???? We were in the tinnie with the buggered motor so just sat on one of the mourings and didnt manage any squid as there was to much water moving under the spit for us to row back up for another drift so i only got 1 drift and couldnt hook the bugger that had a little tug at my jig so it was saturdays bait that saved us!!!!

[kingiemaster]

Good to see they were around on monday!!! a day late for me to!!!!! Where you guys out in the boat with the aussie flag on it???? We were in the tinnie with the buggered motor so just sat on one of the mourings and didnt manage any squid as there was to much water moving under the spit for us to row back up for another drift so i only got 1 drift and couldnt hook the bugger that had a little tug at my jig so it was saturdays bait that saved us!!!!

We were in a 4 metre tinny sitting on the other mooring at the Spit from about 5am to 6.30am.

Surprised you didn't get any on the moorings or "hail Mary" as we call it.

We generally don't bother drifting to catch the squid anymore. We find we get all the squid we need just sitting on the moorings around sunrise. I reckon they move to the deeper water as the sun comes up. That said they seemed disappear half an hour after sun rise.

Hope to see you out there this weekend assumning the you got the motor running again OK.

Dave

[netic]

The squid that seems to hold Around the spit being Arrow squid are not as good as Southern Calamari in my opinion.

Its the same difference between say Yakkas and SLimies......simalar baits but slimies are much more favoured by kingfish.

We have been getting kings up tp 85cm every trip in MH of late using southern calamari squid

Just work the wrecks and reefs inside MH

Edited October 30, 2007 by netic

[gretsch]

Excellent.. some action !!!!!

We will be out on Friday so we will see what happens.

[kingiemaster]

The squid that seems to hold Around the spit being Arrow squid are not as good as Southern Calamari in my opinion.

Its the same difference between say Yakkas and SLimies......simalar baits but slimies are much more favoured by kingfish.

We have been getting kings up tp 85cm every trip in MH of late using southern calamari squid

Hm, very interesting. Never heard of or consider that before. Calamari squid seem to have heaps more ink so maybe thats a big part of it. You're right that arrow squid make up the bulk of the catch at the Spit but we occasiionaly get catch calamari squid also.

Our problem has never been really enticing Kings to eat any type of live squid when they're around, we simply, until Monday, haven't been able to find them. There is a theory that the bigger kings in MH are resident fish but are more spread out and harder to find than the school rats that come into MH in summer.

I know you use downriggers and I am very keen to get at least one for the tinny so we can cover more ground. Up until last weekend we didn't even have a sounder so we haven't exactly made things easy for ourselves.

Dave

PS I would argue that slimies are a different bait to yakka's. More reflective in the water, a richer bloodier flesh and possibly a bit more frangant.

[sanger]

Hope to see you out there this weekend assumning the you got the motor running again OK.

Dave

Hey dave, pretty sure ill be out on the weekend, will probably be in the limo (660 trail craft). well limo compared to the tinnie with a 4hp on it. I would think we would be heading outside but no doubt we will be stopping for a bit of a squid in the wee smalls before travelling on our way weather permitting. If you see us give us a yell!!!!!!

Edited October 31, 2007 by fishlexic

[netic]

Hm, very interesting. Never heard of or consider that before. Calamari squid seem to have heaps more ink so maybe thats a big part of it. You're right that arrow squid make up the bulk of the catch at the Spit but we occasiionaly get catch calamari squid also.

Our problem has never been really enticing Kings to eat any type of live squid when they're around, we simply, until Monday, haven't been able to find them. There is a theory that the bigger kings in MH are resident fish but are more spread out and harder to find than the school rats that come into MH in summer.

I know you use downriggers and I am very keen to get at least one for the tinny so we can cover more ground. Up until last weekend we didn't even have a sounder so we haven't exactly made things easy for ourselves.

Dave

PS I would argue that slimies are a different bait to yakka's. More reflective in the water, a richer bloodier flesh and possibly a bit more frangant.

There has been a run of rats that have entered MH harbour of late but i also heard reports of 10kg kings on the surface in MH lately...personally i havent seen these fish but the report came from a credible source..

Although downriggers are a great tool the main benefit to a downrigger is its ability to get a bait moving, enticing the potential predator to attack....

There is no way of knowing if kings are snubbing your bait or not, i recently had the opportunity to see a strike vision downrigger in action, we couldnt see any fish on the sounder but 4 kings came up and appraoched the live squid only to shy away the last second, without the camera we never would have known that the fish were not interested in the bait, we then ran a squid head only to see if it may entice the king to hit and bam.....first king took the bait.....

My point is sometimes kings for what ever reason wont take a live squid, I even remember reading an article by Mcgill about a king snubbing a Live Squid and a live slimie, only to absolutely smash a dead servo pilchard when given the opportunity. Thats why you gotta try different techniques....2 seasons ago me and sal had the belief that if the kings are there they will take our live squid, Now after fishing with some more experienced kingy fisherman i realise that is not the case and we were mistaken and i have learnt that a kingy will ignore a live squid if it isnt presented right or if it is not in the mood.

Perfect example is the day Sal, Big Steve and I had in April at botany where we caught 25-30 kings....

I spoke to a few people later that week which accused me of lying about the day we caught those fish because they were in botany the same day and couldnt track any kings down, They were under the impression that no kings were present that day in botany and presumed i lied about my report, when infact kings present were in a few locations, they just didnt alter there presentation methods.

The biggest error most anglers make is there bait presentation....with a downrigger, bait presentaion is even more crucial, a incorrectly rigged up squid will spin in the water when being pulled and a spinning squid is un-natural and will not get too many kings to hit it.

Last year this time i remember Kelvin nailing 1 metre kings in MH on a regurlar basis, reason why is he knows how to present his baits well and I know Kelvin will agree, a bigger king, with better developed eye sight will not hit a shi.tty presented squid.

[james7]

The biggest error most anglers make is there bait presentation....with a downrigger, bait presentaion is even more crucial, a incorrectly rigged up squid will spin in the water when being pulled and a spinning squid is un-natural and will not get too many kings to hit it.

Netic, I found your info about bait presentation great reading. I have not tried downrigging but am keen to give it a go so I have a couple of questions you or someone else might answer:

Do you usually use a snell rig for squid (ie a two hook rig)?

If you are just putting down the head, do you use a single hook?

I suppose it would also be useful to know what hooks (size and type) you recommend. I've already read a bit about this but would like to hear from anyone (such as yourself) that has information based on "real" experience that has proved successful.

And finally, how do you stop/reduce the "spin"? Is it just the way you hook/present the bait? Does it also mean the use of a swivel?

Cheers and thanks

Peter

[sanger]

Netic i can vouch for your words completely after last weekend in pittwater!!!!!! All day we were looking for kings at all our different wreck spots and found the kings only on 2 of about 5or 6 wrecks that we checked.... When we did find them downrigging a live squid straight in front of them couldnt earn a strike. They wouldn't touch yakkas either. We ended up getting the only king we boated on a squid strip on a single hook with one of those small white octopus skirts on the top of the strip, then we ripped it up from the bottom through the school Once we had that fish next to the boat he brought up about 5 of his mates which we then trough live squid to and watch them flash it but shy away!!!! They can be pick little buggers at times!

Also with the talk of the bigger kings being resident fish, they havent got that big from being stupid and taking any old bait so they will always be harder to tempt than a little rat with less street smarts!!!!! Netic would love to come fishing with you one time or have you come fishing with us so you can teach us a little more of what you know, cause you can never know to much!!!!

[netic]

Do you usually use a snell rig for squid (ie a two hook rig)?

If you are just putting down the head, do you use a single hook?

I suppose it would also be useful to know what hooks (size and type) you recommend. I've already read a bit about this but would like to hear from anyone (such as yourself) that has information based on "real" experience that has proved successful.

And finally, how do you stop/reduce the "spin"? Is it just the way you hook/present the bait? Does it also mean the use of a swivel?

Mate i use a sliding snell rig with a Treble leading hook and a 5/0 live bait hook as a keeper hook, the keeper,the keeper is adjustable to allow for changes due to squid size changes.

In regards to the spinning its all about getting the hook placement right so it doesnt spin, its very hard to explain but you gotta pinn them between the eyes with the treble then on the end of the mantle with the keeper.

Also with the talk of the bigger kings being resident fish, they havent got that big from being stupid and taking any old bait so they will always be harder to tempt than a little rat with less street smarts!!!!! Netic would love to come fishing with you one time or have you come fishing with us so you can teach us a little more of what you know, cause you can never know to much!!!!

Mate your 100% right, the bigger kings are smarter then your average rat, getting them to strike is 99% of the work.....they are picky about what baits they will take, outside of the estuaries and bays they dont seem to be as selective with the baits they will take but in places like MH and Pittwater bait presentation is everything.

Mate there are alot of people who know a hell of alot more then i do when it comes kings, i wont mentioned names but each estuasry has pro anglers who target Kingys for a living and these guys are great guides.

[james7]

Now, either I am having a run of bad luck coming up fishless the last 4 sessions or the school rats have finally moved into the harbour for the baitfish/squid feast holiday season.

Fortunately John's effort yesterday doesn't count towards point for the coveted KingieKup. (not that I am worried, I always win it)

Kingiemaster, I was going to say don't worry about the four fishless sessions, but you're brimming with confidence.

This has been a great thread to read

Thanks for the initial report

Mate i use a sliding snell rig with a Treble leading hook and a 5/0 live bait hook as a keeper hook, the keeper,the keeper is adjustable to allow for changes due to squid size changes.

In regards to the spinning its all about getting the hook placement right so it doesnt spin, its very hard to explain but you gotta pinn them between the eyes with the treble then on the end of the mantle with the keeper.

Thanks for the reply netic. Very helpful.

I guess the only way I'll really learn is to get out and give downrigging a go.

Cheers

Peter

[rooster]

I need a cold shower after reading this, what a turn on!!!

I now know why I never bothered to learn anything at school,

It's the fishing thats important not all that other stuff.

Thanks

[kingiemaster]

There has been a run of rats that have entered MH harbour of late but i also heard reports of 10kg kings on the surface in MH lately...personally i havent seen these fish but the report came from a credible source..

Although downriggers are a great tool the main benefit to a downrigger is its ability to get a bait moving, enticing the potential predator to attack....

There is no way of knowing if kings are snubbing your bait or not, i recently had the opportunity to see a strike vision downrigger in action, we couldnt see any fish on the sounder but 4 kings came up and appraoched the live squid only to shy away the last second, without the camera we never would have known that the fish were not interested in the bait, we then ran a squid head only to see if it may entice the king to hit and bam.....first king took the bait.....

My point is sometimes kings for what ever reason wont take a live squid, I even remember reading an article by Mcgill about a king snubbing a Live Squid and a live slimie, only to absolutely smash a dead servo pilchard when given the opportunity. Thats why you gotta try different techniques....2 seasons ago me and sal had the belief that if the kings are there they will take our live squid, Now after fishing with some more experienced kingy fisherman i realise that is not the case and we were mistaken and i have learnt that a kingy will ignore a live squid if it isnt presented right or if it is not in the mood.

Perfect example is the day Sal, Big Steve and I had in April at botany where we caught 25-30 kings....

I spoke to a few people later that week which accused me of lying about the day we caught those fish because they were in botany the same day and couldnt track any kings down, They were under the impression that no kings were present that day in botany and presumed i lied about my report, when infact kings present were in a few locations, they just didnt alter there presentation methods.

The biggest error most anglers make is there bait presentation....with a downrigger, bait presentaion is even more crucial, a incorrectly rigged up squid will spin in the water when being pulled and a spinning squid is un-natural and will not get too many kings to hit it.

Last year this time i remember Kelvin nailing 1 metre kings in MH on a regurlar basis, reason why is he knows how to present his baits well and I know Kelvin will agree, a bigger king, with better developed eye sight will not hit a shi.tty presented squid.

Netic, based on the past few weeks and first hand reports from various sources (not just forums) Kings are proving hard to find let alone catch in Middle Harbour or the main harbour. The last two seasons in Middle Harbour have yielded similar results for us until things seem to fire up all of a sudden.

Yours’ is the first credible report I’ve heard of anyone catching Kings regularly in Middle Harbour of late.

Your observations of them ignoring prime baits with the benefit of strikevision and other observations like it (ie actually seeing them ignore a bait or lure on the surface) can be proved without question.

Our observations of the past few weeks (on weekends at least) is of NO FISH TO TAKE THE BAIT and more recently a completely blank sounder to add to our suspicions, whether the fish were there or not.

I GENERALLY find, as you probably have in the past and like anyone else you talk to, that if the Kings are there a livie squid will do the trick, especially rats. Note we nearly always throw out fresh strips on light outfits. I also like to throw a variety of lures around when things are quiet.

So a 4-0 result, when in numerous past sessions using the same baits and techniques at the same spots have come up trumps (eg the Monday), has led me to conclude that the fish simply weren’t there and that squid species and presentation had nothing to do with it.

Fish not taking baits and having to vary your techniques to entice them is true of all species in all locations, including remote areas that have a reputation of being a fishing paradise.

My point is we didn’t really get an opportunity to try anything else we simply put out best foot forward being live squid and strips. The fish just didn’t appear to be around at the spots we tried and we didn’t see much point flogging a dead horse by trying everything method under the sun (the hot hot sun).

All the same I will take on board your southern calamari tip but whether I can convince my mate is another matter.

Dave

[tomahawk1999]

Mate i use a sliding snell rig with a Treble leading hook and a 5/0 live bait hook as a keeper hook, the keeper,the keeper is adjustable to allow for changes due to squid size changes.

Hey Netic, I was curious about a few thing's you do;

Firstly using a treble to tow the squid I would have thought this would cause the bait to spin especially as the bait tires.

Secondly, I would be interested in knowing what percentage of your kings are actually hooked on the treble, I use a single hook to tow which is a small 3/0 XXX strong circle hook, and a 5/0 the same in the mantle.

About 90% are hooked on the mantle hook using squid around 8"+ in size,

just interested in your thoughts.

Regard's Rod.

[sanger]

Hey tomahawk.... what netic said was kinda misleading but he actually does mean the treble is in the head and the livebait hook is in the mantle.

And sorry kingie master we kinda hijacked your thread..... hope you got some usefull infor out of our posts!

[cflife]

Good report mate

and some usefull info indeed.

[netic]

Hey Netic, I was curious about a few thing's you do;

Firstly using a treble to tow the squid I would have thought this would cause the bait to spin especially as the bait tires.

Secondly, I would be interested in knowing what percentage of your kings are actually hooked on the treble, I use a single hook to tow which is a small 3/0 XXX strong circle hook, and a 5/0 the same in the mantle.

About 90% are hooked on the mantle hook using squid around 8"+ in size,

just interested in your thoughts.

Regard's Rod.

Hey Rod,

Surprisingly Nearly every king caught is caught on the treble.....I can only recall 2-3 kings being hooked on the trailing hook or Keeper hook....And thats out of hundreds caught.....

The technique i use is the Same technique used by Pro angler who downriggs everyday for kings, it is also the same rig that Namesay(Kelvin) uses. We rarely if ever have any lost fish due to spat hooks thanks to the treble, but its important to use good quality trebles.

We use Owner hooks exclusively, the only other brand i would consider is the VMC range which are 3x strong trebles.

The treble is what ensures the bait wont spin surprisingly enough, with two circles or live bait hooks i have found that its a higher chance of having a spinning bait.

With a treble i put one of the 3 hooks into the head of the squid right between the eyes, which leaves 2 hooks of the 3 exposed and makes the squid even weighted on both sides, and it also ensures the squid will survive literally for ever, i have towed squid around like this for hours and it has still remained live. Sammy and CFD can verify what im saying as i showed them this technique at last years kingy social, and they were surprised to see the squid healthy as after being towed around 3 different markers in the harbour.

I dont know if this make sense but if i see you one day i can show you and then it will become much clearer...in my head its crystal clear but trying to put it into words is hard.

Netic, based on the past few weeks and first hand reports from various sources (not just forums) Kings are proving hard to find let alone catch in Middle Harbour or the main harbour. The last two seasons in Middle Harbour have yielded similar results for us until things seem to fire up all of a sudden.

Kingiemaster,

This year MH has fished better then past years, last year i didnt know much around MH as i didnt fish it too much, This winter mainly due to crappy offshore weather i was restricted to estuarie and bays so i spent hours and hours sounding out middle harbour looking for any rises and drop offs plus wrecks and reefs and i was able to locate a few.....its those locations that i have been getting the fish from.

The kings don't seem to be moving around that much but more acting like a jewfish would, they seem to be finding a spot and sticking there, and they are not schooling also, normally we can only see 3-4 fish on the sounder.

On occasion i have been able to sound out some kings under a moored boat and have found it impossible to get him to come out and take the bait, maybe they are still a bit letharjic and need the waters to warm up a touch more, Who knows....im just guessing....

I know the charter guys have been fishing very well in MH but keeping the reports quiet for some reason, thats there perogative i guess, hopefully over the coming weeks the kings will wake up and start to move around, If the blue water arrives early this year we could see herds of kingys through the harbour proper very soon.....last year the blue water currents didnt arrive till mid to late January and thats why the herds got here late, this year hopefully it will arrive much sooner...only time will tell

[southerly]

Great thread guys,

Glad I was not the only one who did it tough on Sunday. I can only agree with the others that bait and kigs were absent from the sounder, at least in the areas I fished. May be next week.

Good to say hello to a few of you.

Yours in yakhood,

Southerly

[tomahawk1999]

Ok Netic,

Iv'e got it now, I will give the treble a go and stick to the little circle up front.

Anything that improves hookup's is worth a go.

Sorry about the hijack Kingie master.