Bleeding fish

[budzsta]

Do people bleed all fish?

[bessell1955]

Not that I know of.

[Krispy !]

If youre eating a fish its best to bleed it

[Fab1]

It depends on the fish as said.I think looking after your catch for the table is way more important.

Dispatching it humanely on capture,icing it down quickly and never letting it touch freshwater (assuming it's a saltwater fish) from the time it's landed to dinner plate will make a huge difference to the eating qualitiy of the fish.

Next time your out observe how many people do these things and you won't find too many that do,instead they'll leave them flapping around on the deck,chuck them in a bucket of water in the stinking hot sun,fillet them on the grubiest of public filleting tables then rinse them with fresh water and the list goes on and on.Even the people that use Ice and a seawater slurry in their esky's are introducing fresh water from the Ice into the mix.I use to be one of them until I converted to the sealed saltwater frozen bottle method and haven't looked back.

Cheers.

[fragmeister]

All good advice.

I would add that if you intend on freezing fish for a later time invest in a vacuum sealer.

It prolongs the life of the fish in the freezer and for around $120 they are a great investment... just make sure you resist the urge to vacpac everything in sight because the bags can be costly.

Cheers

Jim

[Stapo]

All good advice.

I would add that if you intend on freezing fish for a later time invest in a vacuum sealer.

It prolongs the life of the fish in the freezer and for around $120 they are a great investment... just make sure you resist the urge to vacpac everything in sight because the bags can be costly.

Cheers

Jim

Excellent advice. I use mine all the time. The fish comes out fresh so does your meat. I even tried my black fish weed. But that didn't work. Lol.

[seasponge]

I've heard about not using fresh water, but what does it actually do to the flesh? Is there any basis to the theory or just old fisherman's tales?

[budzsta]

I assume freshwater adds osmotic pressure to fish and so the salts will leach from the fish into the diluted water

[seasponge]

I assume freshwater adds osmotic pressure to fish and so the salts will leach from the fish into the diluted water

Sounds plausible to me if the fish were sitting in freshwater, but just rinsing it off after scaling and gutting it?

[Mojo4fishin]

very interesting read..

I normally fill up ( half way ) the kill tank in the floor with sea water and throw any keepers in that whist still fishing and from time to time keep on topping the sea water in the tank to keep the temp the same with the sea.

once I get home I take it out and vacpac with out washing the catch.I only wash when its time to cook the catch.

should I be doing this?

[sydney south]

Depending on the boat that I have had at the time. I have always kept my catch alive by adding fresh sea water to the bin that I use or by letting the catch tank run.

If I only catch 1-2 fish and do not want to clean them, I can let them go at the end of the day.

Also, if I am on a roll and the fish are jumping in the boat. I can always release the ones I don't want and keep the preferred ones.

[fragmeister]

Excellent advice. I use mine all the time. The fish comes out fresh so does your meat. I even tried my black fish weed. But that didn't work. Lol.

Yes, a few things don't work well... I have noticed that.

On the subject though I also get old bread rolls and vac pack them while helping by squashing them down.

They crush down to a cm thick or so which saves space.

When I go out fishing I just reconstitute them in a bucket for my live bait burley.

I also find that vac packing meat along with a marinade really gets the flavour through the meat.

Edited May 26, 2016 by fragmeister

[NaClH2OK9]

I always gut and Gill all my food fish as quickly as possible.

+1 on Jim's advice for a vac machine. I don't know how we managed so long without one.

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[sam bros]

Its important that you bleed pelagics as they usually have a high blood content.

I try to bleed all the fish that I intend to keep for a feed as it produces a higher quality flesh (imo)

[Saboo]

I always despatch/bleed immediately and then place my catch on ice.

I've heard about not using fresh water, but what does it actually do to the flesh? Is there any basis to the theory or just old fisherman's tales?

Interesting question, what is it supposed to do?

I rinse almost everything in fresh as most of my cleaning is done at home. I'm talking blackfish, drummer, bream, kings, jews, mackerel, snapper, squid you name it I'll rinse it in fresh.

Interestingly I have a mate who is sure he can tell when fish/squid has been rinsed in fresh as it "spoils it". Soooooo...... i go to the effort of cleaning by the sea one day(king fillet & squid), rinsing in salt water only. Once home I prepare another fillet which had been left on the frame and another squid, both rinsed in fresh. He comes over for dinner and I fill him in as to what is going on and ask him to tell me which is which, he couldn't tell the difference and to be honest neither have I been able to.

[NaClH2OK9]

If you gut Gill and scale on the water. They only need wiping down with a cloth after filleting.

Squid should be fine in fresh water. ( that's what I picked up at Sydney Fish markets sea food school anyway)

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[Nolongeramember]

I always despatch/bleed immediately and then place my catch on ice.

Interesting question, what is it supposed to do?

I rinse almost everything in fresh as most of my cleaning is done at home. I'm talking blackfish, drummer, bream, kings, jews, mackerel, snapper, squid you name it I'll rinse it in fresh.

Interestingly I have a mate who is sure he can tell when fish/squid has been rinsed in fresh as it "spoils it". Soooooo...... i go to the effort of cleaning by the sea one day(king fillet & squid), rinsing in salt water only. Once home I prepare another fillet which had been left on the frame and another squid, both rinsed in fresh. He comes over for dinner and I fill him in as to what is going on and ask him to tell me which is which, he couldn't tell the difference and to be honest neither have I been able to.

That's what I have found as well. If the fish is quickly rinsed in fresh water after cleaning it's just as good. It might be different is you soak it in fresh water for a long time but I can see anything wrong with a quick fresh water rinse.

[Adsy91]

I'm not sure of the science behind it but as a chef when preparing any saltwater fish in the kitchen we would add sea salt to the water untill it tasted like the sea before ever putting the fish near it.

I do however dispatch bleed and remove all innards/veins and gills from the fish instantly if I plan on keeping one for the family...mainly to stop them stiffening up and also to end their pain and suffering as quickly as possible.

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[Fab1]

Here's a old article I dug up so you guys can make your own minds up.It's quite interesting.

Freshwater from the tap will be treated with chlorine, or choroamine to reduce bacteria within the fresh water supply. Whilst most water suppliers don't report all the types of bacteria they do test 'tap' tests for each region and report chlorine levels and common harmful bacteria (such as E.Coli). Bacteria levels are expected to be low, check your local water supplier website.

The bacterial concentration in oceanic surface saltwater would vary considerably but here's a paper which shows for their testing around California they got bacteria counts of 102-104.7/mL depending on the location and culture/count method.

http://www.aslo.org/...ssue_2/0128.pdf

Floral bacteria counts on (alive) fish typically ranges from 102-107/cm2 on skin, 103-109/g on gills, 103-109/g within the intestines. Muscle meat is considered sterile. (From end source)

In the presence of air (just) spoiled fish contains typically contains 108-109/g flesh or /cm2 skin. If the fish fillet was kept at low temperatures bacteria species Pseudomonas and Alteromonas spp. selectively dominate.

As you can see, the source of bacteria is highly unlikely to be from your drinking tap.

Further info.

If the fish is stored whole, tests on cod show 12-14 days after capture minimal bacteria had invaded muscle tissue when held at low temp. (End source)

Strict hygiene measures from handling whole fish is of minor importance, only difference is observed in later stage of storage. Shelf life reduced from 16 to 12 days (from heavily contaminated storage items to aseptic containers). (End source)

Fish Spoilage

Spoilage of fish is a combination of cell autolysis, enzyme activity and bacteria. Enzymes such as Cathepsin D promote degradation of cell proteins to peptides, when a cell dies this is food for bacteria.

Trimethylamine-N-oxide is a metabolite (energy source) and osmolyte (regulates water pressure within living cells) found in fish.

The fishy smell that comes from fish shops is Trimethylamine. It is a result of bacteria reducing (aka eating) the Trimethylamine-N-oxide. So the more bacteria converting Trimethylamine-N-oxide to Trimethylamine, the smellier the fish and the quicker the spoilage. (End source)

What I believe is happening

I believe the difference in rinsing a fillet of fish with fresh water compared to salt water is due to a process of osmosis and diffusion.

An average fish muscle contains: Na+, K+, P, Ca2+, Mg2+ at 72, 278, 190, 79, 38mg/100g muscle. Approx 1-2% dissolved salt content + other compounds dissolved within the cell plasma. (http://www.fao.org/w...6e/x5916e01.htm and end source)

These dissolved items give the fish muscle a higher osmotic pressure than the fresh water you are rinsing with (check salt contents with your water provider). The water moves into surface muscle cells via osmosis until it bursts, this may happen whilst you are rinsing or in the minutes following. Burst muscle cells can't retain water so surface fillet texture and flavour is lost. If cell lysis occurs after rinsing, the proteins and enzymes within the cell are more readily available as food for bacteria. Cathepsin D is activated by water, accelerating bacteria growth.

Salt water has a salt content of 3.5g/100g water, 3.5% dissolved salt content and not many other dissolved compounds.

This makes salt water similar in osmotic pressure to the muscle cells of salt water fish fillet. No significant intake or outtake of water from the cell occurs thus texture is preserved.

Cathepsin D is deactivated by salt water, enzyme activity is completely diminished by a 5% NaCl (salt) solution. Proteins are kept intact, thus flavour remains unaltered

If anyone is studying in the area of food technology, it would be good to hear your thoughts on this.

Beware of supercooling your fish in your esky.

Using saltwater ice (ie freezing saltwater as blocks of ice) can cause partial freezing of your fish which would ruin the texture. Saltwater (ocean water) does not freeze homogeneously, the last bit to freeze (or defrost) occurs at -21C at 23% salt whilst the first bit which freezes (or last to defrost) occurs at 0C with ~0% salt. Most bony fish begin to freeze at -0.8C.

This means with saltwater ice blocks, in salt water with your fish could have the temperature at -5C, which would freeze 62% of your fish. This is equivalent of freezing (cooling fish)-->unfreezing (to fillet) -->freezing (storage for dinner in a month) --> unfreezing (dinner). Not good for the texture of your fish.

What SBL mentioned,

Quote

Well we simply use thick plastic, water tight bottles and fill with fresh water, freezing them, placing them in saltwater ensuring they do not leak. i.e. 2ltr Orange juice bottles.

is what I do too. With fresh water in your bottles, the temperature of the saltwater will not dip below 0C.

Cheers.

[Adsy91]

Here's a old article I dug up so you guys can make your own minds up.It's quite interesting.

Freshwater from the tap will be treated with chlorine, or choroamine to reduce bacteria within the fresh water supply. Whilst most water suppliers don't report all the types of bacteria they do test 'tap' tests for each region and report chlorine levels and common harmful bacteria (such as E.Coli). Bacteria levels are expected to be low, check your local water supplier website.

The bacterial concentration in oceanic surface saltwater would vary considerably but here's a paper which shows for their testing around California they got bacteria counts of 102-104.7/mL depending on the location and culture/count method.

http://www.aslo.org/...ssue_2/0128.pdf

Floral bacteria counts on (alive) fish typically ranges from 102-107/cm2 on skin, 103-109/g on gills, 103-109/g within the intestines. Muscle meat is considered sterile. (From end source)

In the presence of air (just) spoiled fish contains typically contains 108-109/g flesh or /cm2 skin. If the fish fillet was kept at low temperatures bacteria species Pseudomonas and Alteromonas spp. selectively dominate.

As you can see, the source of bacteria is highly unlikely to be from your drinking tap.

Further info.

If the fish is stored whole, tests on cod show 12-14 days after capture minimal bacteria had invaded muscle tissue when held at low temp. (End source)

Strict hygiene measures from handling whole fish is of minor importance, only difference is observed in later stage of storage. Shelf life reduced from 16 to 12 days (from heavily contaminated storage items to aseptic containers). (End source)

Fish Spoilage

Spoilage of fish is a combination of cell autolysis, enzyme activity and bacteria. Enzymes such as Cathepsin D promote degradation of cell proteins to peptides, when a cell dies this is food for bacteria.

Trimethylamine-N-oxide is a metabolite (energy source) and osmolyte (regulates water pressure within living cells) found in fish.

The fishy smell that comes from fish shops is Trimethylamine. It is a result of bacteria reducing (aka eating) the Trimethylamine-N-oxide. So the more bacteria converting Trimethylamine-N-oxide to Trimethylamine, the smellier the fish and the quicker the spoilage. (End source)

What I believe is happening

I believe the difference in rinsing a fillet of fish with fresh water compared to salt water is due to a process of osmosis and diffusion.

An average fish muscle contains: Na+, K+, P, Ca2+, Mg2+ at 72, 278, 190, 79, 38mg/100g muscle. Approx 1-2% dissolved salt content + other compounds dissolved within the cell plasma. (http://www.fao.org/w...6e/x5916e01.htm and end source)

These dissolved items give the fish muscle a higher osmotic pressure than the fresh water you are rinsing with (check salt contents with your water provider). The water moves into surface muscle cells via osmosis until it bursts, this may happen whilst you are rinsing or in the minutes following. Burst muscle cells can't retain water so surface fillet texture and flavour is lost. If cell lysis occurs after rinsing, the proteins and enzymes within the cell are more readily available as food for bacteria. Cathepsin D is activated by water, accelerating bacteria growth.

Salt water has a salt content of 3.5g/100g water, 3.5% dissolved salt content and not many other dissolved compounds.

This makes salt water similar in osmotic pressure to the muscle cells of salt water fish fillet. No significant intake or outtake of water from the cell occurs thus texture is preserved.

Cathepsin D is deactivated by salt water, enzyme activity is completely diminished by a 5% NaCl (salt) solution. Proteins are kept intact, thus flavour remains unaltered

If anyone is studying in the area of food technology, it would be good to hear your thoughts on this.

Beware of supercooling your fish in your esky.

Using saltwater ice (ie freezing saltwater as blocks of ice) can cause partial freezing of your fish which would ruin the texture. Saltwater (ocean water) does not freeze homogeneously, the last bit to freeze (or defrost) occurs at -21C at 23% salt whilst the first bit which freezes (or last to defrost) occurs at 0C with ~0% salt. Most bony fish begin to freeze at -0.8C.

This means with saltwater ice blocks, in salt water with your fish could have the temperature at -5C, which would freeze 62% of your fish. This is equivalent of freezing (cooling fish)-->unfreezing (to fillet) -->freezing (storage for dinner in a month) --> unfreezing (dinner). Not good for the texture of your fish.

What SBL mentioned,

Quote

Well we simply use thick plastic, water tight bottles and fill with fresh water, freezing them, placing them in saltwater ensuring they do not leak. i.e. 2ltr Orange juice bottles.

is what I do too. With fresh water in your bottles, the temperature of the saltwater will not dip below 0C.

Cheers.

Thanks for the effort that went into that post very informative factual info. there

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[Yowie]

When fishing in my boat, I take a one litre container along with frozen fresh water. This is dumped into the esky with a bucket of salt water. Fish are killed, bled and placed into the esky. The ice block melts into the water and the fish remain very cold until cleaned later. Used for whole fish only, and has not caused any problems with softening of the flesh.

After scaling, I give my fish a good wash in salt water, cut off the fillets then place the fillets into a plastic bag, The fillets are NEVER washed in fresh or salt water, just placed straight into the plastic bag.

Washing a salt water fish fillet in fresh water allows the fresh water to be absorbed into the flesh, due to the osmotic pressure difference caused by the salt in the flesh. The reverse happens when you add salt to a fillet of fish, the salt removes some moisture from the flesh causing it to dry out a little and toughen up. Washing the fillets can lead to them absorbing some water and becoming a bit soft on the outside of the exposed flesh.

Such fish as tailor, mackerel and tuna do not freeze well at all, the fillets become soft and mushy. When salted and frozen for bait, the thawed fillets are much tougher due to removal of some water in the flesh, and an excellent bait for most species.

[quochuy]

Excellent advice. I use mine all the time. The fish comes out fresh so does your meat. I even tried my black fish weed. But that didn't work. Lol.

Last year I had good success with catching blackies with the store bought weeds and I manage to keep the weed fresh in the ziplock bag them came in from the shop for nearly a year. Every time I went fishing for blackies I would flood the bag with the water and empty it and then put back in the fridge.

But the weeds from the shop are bit different they are very curly instead of being elongated like the one you gave me. I kept yours for two weeks though

--

Huy

[quochuy]

Not all fish need bleeding but I always Ikijime my fish. Either with a knife, scissors, spike or my Ikijime gun .

Let to die slowly by asphyxia fish stress and that affect the quality of the meat.

--

Huy

Edited June 5, 2016 by gonefishinginoz

[Guest Guest123456789]

Most fish you should never bleed. Tailor for example. Best thing to do is just kill in an ice slurry, put it in fridge and the gut and fillet just before cooking.

ludrrick and bream however should be filled and gutted straight away as their stomach can impart bad flavour to flesh.

[savit]

26 minutes ago, flatheadluke said:

ludrrick and bream however should be filled and gutted straight away as their stomach can impart bad flavour to flesh.

I do not agree about bream, however that's one of the reasons why I do not target luderick now.

I avoid keeping fish from weedy lakes such as one at The Entrance - they usually have some weird taste.