buying a new boat

[robertye112]

Hi Guys,

I'm in the process of buying a new boat. 

I've been thinking about the following 3 different types of boats:

quinnie 450 with a suzuki or yammi 4 stroke 60hp on the back. (Don't have a specific in mind)

webster twinfisher 4.9 with a yammi 4 stroke 60hp  on the back

http://www.boatsales.com.au/boats-for-sale/private/used/SSE-AD-4326866/2007-WEBSTERS-TWINFISHER-49-RUNABOUT?cr=4&psq=((Make%3D[WEBSTERS TWINFISHER]%26(((SiloType%3D[Demo and near new boats]|SiloType%3D[Dealer new boats])|SiloType%3D[Dealer used boats])|SiloType%3D[Private used boats]))%26Service%3DBoatsales)&pso=0&pss=Premium

and from reading through this forum I've discovered grays online where there seems to be pretty good deals like http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0001-7015532/boats-marine-and-aircraft/2007-formosa-520-half-cab

I plan to do maybe 4 trips out to open water per year depending on how often the wife agrees to come with me, how much she enjoys it and how sea sick she gets.

My questions are this:

I assume the most capable boat out of these is the webster twin fisher. Is that right? Is the 60hp on the back enough to get to browns mountain and back with 2 people on board safely? (My wife gets sea sick and from what I can see it is by far the most stable boat.)

I assume a trip to browns mountain with my wife on a very good day is out of the question on the quinnie 450, is that right? (pretty sure the answer is yes, but just want to make sure as I've never been)

Assuming I picked up the formosa 520 half cabin for about 22k registered and ready to go which boat would you say is more capable out of this and the 4.9 webster with a 60 4 stroke on the back? which would YOU buy and why?

 

I know these questions are general and hard to answer, I appreciate any replies.

Edited November 7, 2016 by robertye112

[The Incredible Hull]

Hi Rob,

I just recently purchased a 2012 450 Escape. It has a 60hp 4 stroke EFI Mercury, incredible fuel efficiency. I can only take it outside on calm days, but then again, so does everyone else in bigger or smaller boats.

I was dead set keen on a 5m boat, but it couldn't fit in my garage =( And parking outside is a no go as my street is too narrow.

Anything 5m or over, you'll be fine. Just make sure you have space to park it safely and the right towing vehicle. I'll be upgrading to a current model Hilux.

Dave

[JA1990]

From my experience, I had a 455 Quintrex escape with a 50hp Johnson 2 stroke, She was perfect for all my styles of fishing. I have taken her off shore to Broughton island, Montague island and Bird Island with a few people on board. Handles really well.

I would be hesitant for browns but only because I know that off shore waters can change very quickly. But check your weather and bring common sense you will be fine.

Agree with the Hilux all though does not have to be a current model lol

[The Incredible Hull]

16 minutes ago, JA1990 said:

Agree with the Hilux all though does not have to be a current model lol

But its so awesome! Practically sells itself lol - it's part of a longer term plan, to relandscape my front yard and eventually get a 6m boat lol just gotta slowly ease the missus into it

[JA1990]

Haha, I hear ya mate. I wont be keeping my new renegade in the front yard how ever lol. 

I dont need to ease my missus into anything. I am in one of those next gen 'fair and equal' Domestic Partnership. 

[jeffb5.8]

Hope your not over 6ft 2 if your getting a Hilux, the leg room is horrible, although quieter and slightly smoother than my Ranger, at least i have more room and adjustment.

The Webster twin is a great boat, work mate has one and he loves it, i like the formosa more.

I think get the biggest boat you can park and handle with the newest motor, as most people end up upgrading after a year or two as they find they start fishing in the bays and rivers and then want to go a bit further out.

[robertye112]

thanks for all the input guys. jeffb why do you like formosa more? The problem I'm seeing with that webster is that it's a 60hp on the back which is the lowest rated motor for that boat. I'm worried it won't be enough but at the same time it's ideal because I don't want to spend more than $25k.

I'd be really keen on peoples thoughts as to which is more open sea capable, the formosa or the webster?

[oz_brett]

Personally I wouldn't bother with the little quinny if you want to go out side get the boat thats made for it, your always going to want to go that bit further.

The websters Ive never been in one but they are supposed to be a good boat though I would be wondering what its been through - floor replaced, $1600 for a service (my 150 Honda is always $800 or below for service) Then a new prop aswell something here doesn't add up!

The Formosa They are an awesome well built hull good soft ride and handle rough water really good, That same boat was my choice only it was over ruled by the wife who wanted the 6m Stessco. & might I add towed the 6m for 6 years with an old ford wagon guys who NEED a 4wd truck to tow a single axle trailer need to think about there driving skills, however I have upgraded to an (older model new model is not required) ford ranger but that was more for the diesel motor & off road ability.

 Brett

[robertye112]

thanks Brett, I never thought it to be suspicious, just well maintained, I'll definitely keep a sharp eye out and see if anything has happened (capsized maybe?) but my feelings are that they're just standard Sydney prices mate

[jeffb5.8]

Tip 1 make sure you factor in $250+ for a pre purchase inspection, See Hayden (Site Sponsor) 

Tip 2 spend more on the purchase of the  boat and get the right boat at the start to get all the option and latest Motor, as it saves upgrades later on.

Tip 3

Service records only are complete when service by a marine mechanic and a receipt issued, not their mate, who happened to know how to spin a spanner.

 

The Webster is under powered, my mates has a 90hp Yamaha, you will be flogging that 60hp all day everyday.

I have been in a similar looking Formosa a few times and as above it really impressed me and if I didn't want a bow rider I would have gone looking for a Formosa.

 

try and water test a few and you will know as everyone has a different preference. 

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by jeffb5.8

[Escaped]

11 hours ago, robertye112 said:

Hi Guys,

I'm in the process of buying a new boat. 

I've been thinking about the following 3 different types of boats:

quinnie 450 with a suzuki or yammi 4 stroke 60hp on the back. (Don't have a specific in mind)

webster twinfisher 4.9 with a yammi 4 stroke 60hp  on the back

http://www.boatsales.com.au/boats-for-sale/private/used/SSE-AD-4326866/2007-WEBSTERS-TWINFISHER-49-RUNABOUT?cr=4&psq=((Make%3D[WEBSTERS TWINFISHER]%26(((SiloType%3D[Demo and near new boats]|SiloType%3D[Dealer new boats])|SiloType%3D[Dealer used boats])|SiloType%3D[Private used boats]))%26Service%3DBoatsales)&pso=0&pss=Premium

and from reading through this forum I've discovered grays online where there seems to be pretty good deals like http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0001-7015532/boats-marine-and-aircraft/2007-formosa-520-half-cab

I plan to do maybe 4 trips out to open water per year depending on how often the wife agrees to come with me, how much she enjoys it and how sea sick she gets.

My questions are this:

I assume the most capable boat out of these is the webster twin fisher. Is that right? Is the 60hp on the back enough to get to browns mountain and back with 2 people on board safely? (My wife gets sea sick and from what I can see it is by far the most stable boat.)

I assume a trip to browns mountain with my wife on a very good day is out of the question on the quinnie 450, is that right? (pretty sure the answer is yes, but just want to make sure as I've never been)

Assuming I picked up the formosa 520 half cabin for about 22k registered and ready to go which boat would you say is more capable out of this and the 4.9 webster with a 60 4 stroke on the back? which would YOU buy and why?

 

I know these questions are general and hard to answer, I appreciate any replies.

I have got a 450 Escape with a Yammi 50 4 stroke, and the wife and i regularly fish well beyond the shelf and tangle with +150kg marlin, deep drop etc. They are a capable little boat, handle big seas surprisingly well, great on fuel, easy to tow, store and handle.

But they are a harsh ride when choppy and the wave period drops, they don't have a whole lot of deck space, and can be a wet ride.

The 520 Formosa is a great boat, much nicer ride and the wife will be more comfortable in this boat.

 

Quote

 

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Escaped

[kingfishbig]

60 hp is the minimum rating for the Webster 4.9.Normally you want near the maximum rating for offshore boating, so way under powered, especially being a 4 stroke. 

Also I don't think any of the boats mentioned are suitable for Browns Mountain. You'd be flat out getting to the Peak on typical winters day with brisk westerlies. 

Any reason you haven't mentioned fiberglass boats?

 

 

[robertye112]

jeff, escaped and kingfish, thank you very much for the replies these pieces of advise saves newbies like me making a lot of expensive mistakes and so I really do appreciate it.

 

kingfish I haven't mentioned fiberglass boats because I from what I read get the impression they use a fair bit more fuel and I don't want to limit my trips because I'm worried about fuel bills. Am I right in saying they use a fair bit more fuel?

[jeffb5.8]

The difference in reality between a fiberglass and a aluminum in fuel consumption with the same motor will be $10 - $15 across the same distance on a bad day on a normal day it will be very close maybe 5ltrs difference. 

Fiberglass will cut through the swell better and is way more comfortable.

Downside:

They are heavy to launch and retrieve but you get used to it work around it.

Heavier to tow

2nd Hand boats need the transom and floors checked to make sure there is no rotten stringers or soft spots.

 

 

[PaddyT]

Fuel is the least of your costs when running a boat especially if its a new tech motor. Im just going to be a bit blunt here and ask you a few questions that you should be asking yourself 1. What is the main use of the boat going to be? Ive seen too many blokes buy boats with all sorts of crap they dont need "because the wife wants it" trouble is the wife comes out 1-2 times a year max and the canopy, the porta pottie , the bimini , the clears all just get in the way. So think about that. 2. Is this a fishing boat or a social boat? See question 1-minimise the crap if its a fishing boat. i saw your first post about Browns- go there in a big boat and see just how far it is- a long way to say the least and not the place for small boats driven by inexperienced drivers (and all the guys who go their in their 4m tinnies feel free to shoot at me!). Power- never buy a boat with minimum HP for any sort of offshore work- you can never have enough power (and its not for going fast!). With the Webster boats- be aware that there were Made in Oz and MAde in China versions- look carefully before choosing. Finally good luck - be cautious and youll be fine

[Sigma]

Not trying to hijack the topic here but what is a "safe" size boat to go out further like the FADS, Browns Mountain?

Always thought you should have a big boat (like 7mtr+) to go further out.

 

I have a Quintrex 560 Freedom Sport with a 115Hp.....would people go out and feel safe in this?

I'm still to go outside the heads further cause I keep thinking that the boat is not big enough but I'm hearing that people go with smaller boats. 

I know safe can be interpreted differently but if you had a nice day and say a 10-15 knot breeze came around, would you panic? 

[robertye112]

PaddyT I couldn't help but chuckle reading your post about the wife part. It's a good question, one I've asked myself seriously and I think it'll be a 50/50 split. If my wife doesn't enjoy it much then it's just not going to get used because as much as I'd love to be out there I would get bored of it pretty quick by myself. I want to do a trip around Australia and take the boat with me so that's another consideration as to why I prefer aluminium. (weight)

 

thanks for the tip about oz made vs chinese made, i'll do my research about when they started doing that and stear clear

[PaddyT]

20 minutes ago, Sigma said:

Not trying to hijack the topic here but what is a "safe" size boat to go out further like the FADS, Browns Mountain?

Always thought you should have a big boat (like 7mtr+) to go further out.

 

I have a Quintrex 560 Freedom Sport with a 115Hp.....would people go out and feel safe in this?

I'm still to go outside the heads further cause I keep thinking that the boat is not big enough but I'm hearing that people go with smaller boats. 

I know safe can be interpreted differently but if you had a nice day and say a 10-15 knot breeze came around, would you panic? 

There are some people who shouldnt go to sea in an ocean liner and there are some who could circumnavigate Tasmania in a 4.5 M boat. These days the radio coverage and the weather forecasting is pretty solid. I go to the shelf in a 5,4 M centre console all the time BUT if you havent been to sea before I would suggest starting a bit more modestly -A 5.6 M boat is fine but does everything work as it should, do you have back ups- eg 2 radios, 2 batteries, 2 bilge pumps, (I trust manual ones much more than autos) EPIRB etc. Go for a run up to Long Reef - its 10 k's up the coast from the harbour . Bowriders can hold a lot of water up front if you cop a wave but in theory are probably no more dangerous than a centre console. The FADS are not that far but again there are plenty of fish closer in . The psychology of seeing the land dissappear when you are in a small boat is also there. Go to sea with someone who knows what they are doing the first few times.

[JA1990]

16 hours ago, Escaped said:

I have got a 450 Escape with a Yammi 50 4 stroke, and the wife and i regularly fish well beyond the shelf and tangle with +150kg marlin, deep drop etc. They are a capable little boat, handle big seas surprisingly well, great on fuel, easy to tow, store and handle.

But they are a harsh ride when choppy and the wave period drops, they don't have a whole lot of deck space, and can be a wet ride.

The 520 Formosa is a great boat, much nicer ride and the wife will be more comfortable in this boat.

 

 

Mate the all the Quintrex runabouts through the years are great boats off shore, they handle like a dream as well

Edited November 8, 2016 by JA1990

[zmk1962]

9 hours ago, Sigma said:

Not trying to hijack the topic here but what is a "safe" size boat to go out further like the FADS, Browns Mountain?

Always thought you should have a big boat (like 7mtr+) to go further out.

 

I have a Quintrex 560 Freedom Sport with a 115Hp.....would people go out and feel safe in this?

I'm still to go outside the heads further cause I keep thinking that the boat is not big enough but I'm hearing that people go with smaller boats. 

I know safe can be interpreted differently but if you had a nice day and say a 10-15 knot breeze came around, would you panic? 

Nice days change - very quickly.

I have a 635L Haines Hunter with a factory pod....so it has a waterline like a 7m hull. I have a 200HP main motor and 15 HP Aux. I have 3 batteries etc etc etc. My only single point of failure is the 250L fuel tank shared by both motors.  I do go to the shelf and Browns. 

March 2013 the forecast was for smooth seas and a 5kt NE on 1m seas in the afternoon.  Great conditions to go wide and PERFECT return conditions from Browns...a tail wind with light following seas - I'd normally come back at 50km/h in these conditions making it a sub 1hr trip.

Travel out perfect and start of return journey all perfect...up until we reached12mile reef.

Then from 12mile to Syndey heads (the last 20km) took me 4.5 hours.  We hit a squall. The 3-4m waves and wind gusts were the worst I have experienced. There was no pattern to the waves. They were coming from all direction. We surfed and porpoised through many a wave - I know first hand my hull does not broach sliding down the back of a wave and the half cabin and bimini certainly deflected many a wave that crashed on the bow !!!! Note there was NO MARINE FORECAST WARNING for the day !! ... this storm came out of nowhere. It caught us and Marine Rescue off guard. 

Personally I was in radio contact with Marine Rescue Sydney from 12mile (VHF and 27mhz on board)...told them I was doing it tough but OK... but I was worried about the tinnies I had seen at Brown's that day.  They sent a launch out - just in case to help escort them back.

The net of the story is...relying just on a weather forecast is asking for trouble. Things change and change very quickly on the water. You have about 10km visibility to the horizon standing at water level -- a squall you see on the horizon traveling at 60-100km/h will be on you in minutes.

Know your boat...gain experience, prepare your boat and your crew for the worst and stay calm is my motto.

Some people are comfortable in smaller craft... I consider mine borderline in situations like I described above.

My experience is not isolated - here's a youtube clip of a bunch of guys up near Terrigal in 2014 - they had a 10min warning on radio that the storm was approaching.

After seeing their clip - I noted it was a similar size if not identical rig to mine (Haines 22ft) - except they had a hard top -  and since my bimini was due for replacement I have actually decided to upgrade mine to a hard top on this go round. I don't think my existing marine canvas bimini would have held the 100+km/h winds they experienced and I'm sure the hardtop contributed to their good fortunes - so I figure all add that to my equation.

So the forecasts are just that... they are are forecast and may not be reality.

And my advice is which ever water craft you choose - get to know it in all conditions - as you build your experience certainly venture out - be prepared - as you are the skipper responsible for all the folks on board - and never stop learning from other's experiences.

Cheers Zoran 

 

 

 

[robertye112]

cheers Zoran, I've seen that clip. Scares the living crap out of me to be honest with you. So does your story about taking 4.5 hours to make 20km!

makes me think about maybe going a size larger to a 5.2m webster twinfisher and settle for a 2 stroke to keep within the budget. zmk1962 do you reckon your 625 hull would be more sea capable than a 5.2 webster? 

[recurve]

The Webster looks like a good boat but you have to be aware that although stable they can broach in a following sea. Only go out wide if you have all the right gear and the right boat.However I would not be too worried about going way out wide. Great fishing to be had closer to shore.

I have a very tough capable boat but we never go way out wide to the shelf. Plenty of great fishing inside the 8k mark.

My advice would be to get a boat that suits your requirements. If your touring around then most of what you will be doing in inshore or estuary work, you won't be pulling up a new location and heading miles out. Fish your feet first. We have been doing really well, like smashing it with Kings and Snapper and going no further than 1k from the boat ramps. Fish your feet first. If your really into it and want to chase Tuna, Mahi Mahi and the deep water fish out wide then upgrade later.

Seasickness is a rough gig. Not a good affliction to be taking miles offshore unless your confident in medication. 

The Formosa boats look solid and people I have met are happy with them.

For 25k you should get a pretty good used boat. If I were buying a used Alloy Boat with that budget and wanted something tough I would only look at welded Plate Boats. Much less things to go wrong and super easy to inspect. Also bit heavier so handling better than a pressed boat.

 

 

 

 

[Sigma]

2 hours ago, zmk1962 said:

Nice days change - very quickly.

I have a 635L Haines Hunter with a factory pod....so it has a waterline like a 7m hull. I have a 200HP main motor and 15 HP Aux. I have 3 batteries etc etc etc. My only single point of failure is the 250L fuel tank shared by both motors.  I do go to the shelf and Browns. 

March 2013 the forecast was for smooth seas and a 5kt NE on 1m seas in the afternoon.  Great conditions to go wide and PERFECT return conditions from Browns...a tail wind with light following seas - I'd normally come back at 50km/h in these conditions making it a sub 1hr trip.

Travel out perfect and start of return journey all perfect...up until we reached12mile reef.

Then from 12mile to Syndey heads (the last 20km) took me 4.5 hours.  We hit a squall. The 3-4m waves and wind gusts were the worst I have experienced. There was no pattern to the waves. They were coming from all direction. We surfed and porpoised through many a wave - I know first hand my hull does not broach sliding down the back of a wave and the half cabin and bimini certainly deflected many a wave that crashed on the bow !!!! Note there was NO MARINE FORECAST WARNING for the day !! ... this storm came out of nowhere. It caught us and Marine Rescue off guard. 

Personally I was in radio contact with Marine Rescue Sydney from 12mile (VHF and 27mhz on board)...told them I was doing it tough but OK... but I was worried about the tinnies I had seen at Brown's that day.  They sent a launch out - just in case to help escort them back.

The net of the story is...relying just on a weather forecast is asking for trouble. Things change and change very quickly on the water. You have about 10km visibility to the horizon standing at water level -- a squall you see on the horizon traveling at 60-100km/h will be on you in minutes.

Know your boat...gain experience, prepare your boat and your crew for the worst and stay calm is my motto.

Some people are comfortable in smaller craft... I consider mine borderline in situations like I described above.

My experience is not isolated - here's a youtube clip of a bunch of guys up near Terrigal in 2014 - they had a 10min warning on radio that the storm was approaching.

After seeing their clip - I noted it was a similar size if not identical rig to mine (Haines 22ft) - except they had a hard top -  and since my bimini was due for replacement I have actually decided to upgrade mine to a hard top on this go round. I don't think my existing marine canvas bimini would have held the 100+km/h winds they experienced and I'm sure the hardtop contributed to their good fortunes - so I figure all add that to my equation.

So the forecasts are just that... they are are forecast and may not be reality.

And my advice is which ever water craft you choose - get to know it in all conditions - as you build your experience certainly venture out - be prepared - as you are the skipper responsible for all the folks on board - and never stop learning from other's experiences.

Cheers Zoran 

 

 

 

Thanks Zoki,

I watched the clip and I think that they were blessed that they had a hard top.

Don't worry, I went through something worse but it was closer to shore. This is wehy i asked how bad can it get out there cause waves can be worse closer to shore.

It was the Australia Day 2012 long weekend,.We were in Jervis Bay on my smaller boat that i have. It was an older 4.6mtr aluminium half cabin with a brand new bimini cover and an 80's 50hp Johnson. It was probably the 4th or 5th outing since I bought the boat.

Early in the morning there was a drizzle and the water was dead calm. We launch at Callala. We head out to Longnose point near the tubes. There was about 30 boats out there already. New to boating, not having a chartplotter, only a cheap fishfinder, we stopped at a certain spot as it was in the middle of everyone. Start fishing and the session was hot. There were slimeys everywhere. Got spooled twice by hoodlums because we were fishing light gear. Next thing you know, Maritime heading straight for us. Thought, "oh no, we surely can't be in a sanctuary zone?". Anyway, they came over and asked if we knew where we were fishing and asked if we had a chartplotter?  Our answers to both questions were no and no. He explained that we were sitting on top of a bommie and we are lucky that the water was very calm otherwise we would have tipped over by now. He recommended that we move, so, we did. We kept fishing for another 2hrs and then I noticed something strange (to focused on the hot session we were having). I noticed that we were the only ones out there and every boat had left. I had a feeling something was wrong and I told my mates to pull the lines in and we're going home. As we were inside the bay, I switched the VHF radio off as we only had one battery and I wasn't taking chances that the outboard wouldn't start if we needed to leave quickly. One of my mates started carrying on that I'm crazy and to stay another 15mins. Real wary, I said..."another 15mins and thats it!!". He agreed. Fifteen minutes became a half hour and when I said, "Lines out, we're heading home", he started whinging again. This time, I started the outboard with his lines still in the water and started to proceed back. We didn't even get 300mtrs under way, next thing you know, we are surfing waves 3mtrs high. We were getting thrown around left, right abd centre, i needed to go left, but the boat was going right. I then remembered not to go across the waves as we would have tipped. I grabbed my mate on two occassions for him not to go overboard. It was bloody scary...I thought that we were going to die. I'm hearing the outboard screaming and thinking WTF? I look behind me and I notice why the outboard is screaming like crazy. The propeller is more out of the water than it was in the water. We were so high on the wave, then all of a sudden the wave dissapears under you and you are free falling, then BANG, straight down and our knees buckling from the impact. Looking at that video, I know that the storm we went through was much, much worse but they were going into it and we were going with it as we had a southerly behind us. We struggle back somehow (after 2hrs out there). We get out of the boat and we look like we had just jumped in the water with our clothes on, and came out. The boat is half full as well....thank god we survived that, thats all I can say.

Ever since that day, my mate doesn't want to go anywhere further than 20-30mtrs away from shore....which ticks me off. If he had listened to me from the get go, we wouldn't have gone through any of it...and now he is scared, go figure.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Sigma

[JonD]

A boat I once had and ticked many boxes was a Formula 15 cc, a boat you can do just about everything in.

A boat you can lock away in the garage and tinker with when ever you like as well as leave all your gear in ready to go when ever you feel like it.

I used mine mostly for offshore fishing and deep dropping for blue-eye etc. there was never any reason to panic if I got hit with a strong 30kn southery while out beyond the shelf as the little boat lapped it up ( if driven properly). By the way most of my fishing is out through Narooma bar which this little boat handled almost as good as a JetSki.

The yam f70 4 stroke gave me 3.5 km per litre, a safe 300km range, in a boat that was easy to tow to most parts of the Aus coastline.

I sold mine what I now relise was a little to cheap at $22000 and would defiantly buy another. 

Jon

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by JonD

[New Signing]

Sigma, jervis bay can be a cruel mistress lol. I put my mates 4.6m webster through its paces there coming back across the bay from honeymoon to callala in 30 odd knots of south westerly. My mate and his nephew had the fear of god in them but other than being a little bit wet the little webster was never in any danger of going over. A lot of the danger of going to sea is the ability of the person behind the wheel. A good skipper will negotiate his way back to shore safely in just about anything in these modern day boats. Sometimes you just have to take your time.

I am a big fan of the websters and was looking for a 5.2 myself when purchasing my boat but just couldnt find one at a reasonable price. I will second what someone else has said in that they are prone to broaching so its important you keep that nose up in a following sea. They also dont appreciate a sharp turn with the single motor cavitating. I found the short nose meant straight into short sharp chop isnt great either however going a bit quicker stopped us copping too many to the face. 

I'd own one without hesitation.

I currently have a Savage Lancer 5.3 with a 90 4 stroke suzi on it and comfortably fish the shelf when conditions allow