Question to DerekD

[frankS]

I was talking with a young chap about fishing and trying to explain to him that generally fish like to hang around structure.

I was telling him that a river or bay, even out in the ocean is similar to human highways where long distances can be travelled 
and very few vehicles are seen, then along the way you come across a McDonalds OR similar and all of a sudden the numbers of 
vehicles has increased 10 fold to the point that it is sometimes hard to get somewhere to park.

Well structure is the rivers Mcdonalds where fish tend to gather in numbers because that is where the food is.

I went on to explain that the majority of fish will be close to shore OR structure around pylons of piers etc or bommies out in the middle.

He then asked me why IF the fish are usually in close Why does @DerekD teach and encourage that you cast as far as you can and you should 
tune your equipement to get as long a cast as you possibly can ?.

I put my thoughts to this but not being one to answer why another fisho things and teaches the way he/she does things, I thought
I would ask @DerekD  this question as I believe it may be an interesting subject that others would read with interest.

So @DerekD could you explain your thoughts why you encourage casting as far as humanly possible ?.

Don't get me wrong. I know why I sometimes like a long cast but the novice may find it confusing.

Frank

[DerekD]

Hi @frankS,

Wonderful to hear from you and that is an awesome question.

I really appreciate the thought and care you and the person you are mentoring put into the way you framed the question and I hope my response does it justice.

It will take me more time than I have in my lunch break so I'll come back to you in a few days.

Regards,

Derek

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by DerekD

[frankS]

42 minutes ago, DerekD said:

Hi @frankS,

Wonderful to hear from you and that is an awesome question.

I really appreciate the thought and care you and the person you are mentoring put into the way you framed the question and I hope my response does it justice.

It will take me more time than I have in my lunch break so I'll come back to you in a few days.

Regards,

Derek

 

Derek. Maybe start a new thread so members can react to you rather than using this thread. Up to you.

I think it will be interesting reading and may answer more than one question.

PS would love to catch up with you some time and have a brew or two and a decent chin wag.

Frank

Edited April 13, 2023 by frankS

[noelm]

There is a couple of advantages to being able to cast long, first off, how about if you're fishing some structure (say) 10m out, you could cast way past it, then work your lure/bait right into/over/down the side of that structure! On a beach, sometimes casting out over a gutter and bringing your bait/lure in from the "outside" can invoke a bite. Casting to feeding schools on the surface, often casting beyond the school is better than lobbing right in the centre of the frenzy....just a couple of possibles off the top of my head.

[DerekD]

Hi @frankS,

I've rewritten my response several times. The message is the same but I want to really convey the logic behind the why.

First thing it is a minor misconception that I am teaching people to cast primarily for distance. When I put together the article on effective casting ( https://community.deckee.com/topic/94302-article-effective-casting-with-spinning-outfits/ ) I stated.

When working lures you will be doing a lot of casting. Effective casting to me is a combination of minimal effort for maximum result and we can generally improve the accuracy of the casting too. When I teach people, the first practical thing I do is hand them one of my light rods and ask them to cast and retrieve a SP with 1/4oz jig head. For about 80% (a combination of beginners and experienced fishos) of the people I can make some suggestions as to how to improve the effectiveness of their casting. To drive the point home I will then punch the same lure out and get a noticeable increase in distance. I point out that distance is not the main aim but will generally develop from good technique and lure placement.

What I am really aiming to do is improve the efficiency (learning to cast effortlessly so long sessions don't become excessively tiring) and effectiveness (putting the lure where you want it to go) of their casting and the increased distance is a bonus which comes out of good technique.

To quote @robthefisherman after his first lesson with me: "I spent 5 hours with Derek yesterday and I am absolutely blown away with the improvement. I am casting at least 40% further and 300% more accurate just after one session"

That 300% increase in accuracy was the more important goal than the casting distance (which I think Rob actually doubled). Having said that, I also want the student to be able to get the most out of their gear so it is on tap if they ever require it.

With good technique you should be able to get close to a target 15m away, then 20m, then 25m and so on until you hit the physical limits of the outfit (combination of rod, line and lure). You increase the casting distance you are capable of organically as you change your aim point and put just a bit more energy in each time. Please note: just because you can get the maximum casting distance out of your outfit you don't actually have to all the time. My car has 260km/h on the speedometer but on a daily basis I don't need to do more than 80km/h legally. If I'm on the highway I can take it up to the limit of 110km/h as needed. Same with casting. For example, I fish freshwater for bass in rivers and often aim to drop the lure within a foot of the opposite bank - accuracy is often more important than pure distance.

Your observation about structure was spot on but was only part of picture (in my opinion). Lure fishing is often a case of covering new ground and finding the 1 in 10 or 20 suitable fish that are interested in taking the lure. If you have cast 10 or 20 times at that jetty without a strike then it is probably worth finding a new location. Fishraider @Niall will often walk several km during a session casting at structure (and frequently parallel to the shoreline) while chasing the wily bream. His frequent successes are a testament to the effectiveness of this approach. I also cover a lot of ground but I've worked out that casting long distances into the harbour (rather than parallel) also yields very good results.

When you mentioned structure I think you were alluding to the ecosystems which congregate around them, seaweed, then small bait fish, then larger bait fish, then predators. The FADs (Fish Aggregating Devices - read buoys) off Sydney are popular locations to find Mahi Mahi and kingfish for a similar reasons. As you said, often what it comes down to is find the food (I liked your McDonalds analogy) you will likely find the predators which are usually your target species. This is where I think you need to expand on the original discussion.

In Sydney harbour we have the schools of baitfish (e.g. anchovy) on which the kings, tailor and salmon will voraciously feed on daily for months at a time. While they can be found pushed up against structure they will more often be found in the bays and the main harbour, in or out of casting distance. If you have a vessel then you are laughing as you can follow the schools the whole day. This is one example where being able to cast that little bit further gives me a chance on reaching these feeding schools. I've set up one outfit (ArrowZ 9 foot rod with 50gram lure rating, Shimano Stradic 4000 and 10lb slim jigging braid) purely for casting distance. With a 40gram metal, a bit of a tailwind and an extra hard flick at the end of the casting power stroke I can just hit 100m. This puts some of these surface feeding schools in casting distance and at least gives me a chance (when fishing shore based) of hooking into a pelagic. In golf if you putt short of the hole it will almost never go in. If I can't reach the feeding schools I'm less likely to hook up.

Next example is flathead. There will be plenty close to structure but there will be even more spread out over the bottom of the harbour. My preferred method to chasing and catching them consistently is to cover new ground and do so methodically. The further I can cast the more ground I can cover. I was fishing at Terrigal lagoon recently with @Bateau Stu and @Bennyg78. The area we are fishing is pretty wide but also surprisingly shallow (say 1 to 1.2m deep). The biggest flathead I hooked in the last session was with one of my longer casts. Again the name of the game there is covering ground.

The third example is sandflats. There is usually no specific structure to aim for but there is plenty of food (ghost nippers aka yabbies aka nippers, crabs, worms and small baitfish) to be found hence many predatory fish cruising these flats. Again the name of the game is covering ground. Additionally, the further away I am from the predatory fish the less likely they are to be spooked. Being able to cast a small lure weighing less than 10grams impressive distances (ideally using a tailwind for assistance) is again an advantage.

I've enjoyed responding to your excellent question and I hope my response gives the two of you some more discussion points.

Regards,

Derek

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by DerekD

[frankS]

Derek. Thanks so much for your explanation of " Benefits to the long cast " .

I had no doubt that you would submit yet another awesome read for the members here. You have a certain knack for holding the interest of those who read your articles, much like @wazatherfisherman the way you two gentlemen put words into your writings is far and beyond the general hack such as myself.

I do hope many members read your words and perhaps learn the why it is beneficial to their angling to be able to get a good accurate long cast in when needed.

I think your reply to me should be a separate heading so more members will read it.

Thank you.

Frank

 

[DerekD]

Hi @frankS

As it was you that put together such an interesting question I also think it should be an article under your name.

If you edit the original title to something like "Article - what are some of the benefits of longer casting" and ask the moderators nicely to move it into the articles section then they will.

Additionally, you can make some really minor edits to your original post to lead into my response and then at some stage add in the benefits you see from being able to achieve a long cast to round off the topic.

Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Derek

Edited April 14, 2023 by DerekD