Going again

[Bryant fish]

So after the tohatsu mc 40 crapped itself finally found a replacement powerhead had it sent from cairns to sydney it was only one to be had mechanic looked at it wasn’t too confident as you could see light corrosion in crankcase and told me to send it back.so wrecker said you can send back but cant replace it as there are bugger all around tell mechanic to pull it down first and see if its ok . Mechanic does and says it should actually be ok and strips and cleans it all good so today we fit it using all the old carb electrics flywheel etc on starting only running 1 cyl compression test all ok so pull off fuel pump diaphram buggered pull pump off 2nd motor (twin setup) still runs rough ok must be crap in carb mechanic tells me to do it as I’ve done a few times pull apart and crap everywhere i have spare parts galote so deap with another carb all good now just have to buy a new fuel pump and hopefully all good those 2 stroke motors are bloody strong

[Bryant fish]

Forgot to say all those things wrong and motor would still start and run (roughly)

[Fab1]

Certainly cheaper than a 4stroke to own and maintain.

[Bryant fish]

Mate i was quoted $20000 to replace with 1 90 hp

[Fab1]

1 hour ago, Bryant fish said:

Mate i was quoted $20000 to replace with 1 90 hp

And they would of said it like it’s loose change.

[Bryant fish]

Actually she said herself that costs were getting out of hand and taking the fun out of boating that price is a rough guess as the motor was around $16500 without prop rigging or fitting

[bessell1955]

Outboards are dear.

[noelm]

Outboards have always been expensive, but as soon as the “Covid tax” hit and they were near impossible to get, prices skyrocketed, and unfortunately now that you can get them, the price has barely dropped. Most reckon the dealer is making a killing, but, after working in the industry for a very long time, nothing could be further from the truth. Just kind of meandering off topic, it’s funny how brands get kind of “pigeon holed” Mercury have always been black anchors. Yamaha has a reputation for never breaking down, old OMC (Evinrude/Johnson) were always reliable and thought of as fishing boat motors. Honda is always said to be heavy. Suzuki are weak HP. Tohatsu is always someone else’s motor. An e-tec is likely to blow up while still in the garage……..the real truth is, almost none of those things are fact, just urban/internet myths spread perpetually year after year.

[BaitDropper]

That's for sure true !

It's always amused me how many people hold on to views about things, they maybe heard about an outboard from their dad, ie Mercury in there early days and the corrosion mantle stuck hard. It's human nature, the ford versus holden syndrome 😁..  I've had a selection of out board models over my journey, this time I went with the 140 Suk, didn't think I would ever have one of them after being in many of my mates boats, which all did inflame the " Weak " Engine label they were lumped with. In all honesty, I too labelled them Weak, which they were mated to heavy 6 meter boats that I had been in. They were the " bees knees" engine when they first came out and they were thrown on boats as a cheap HP option, compared to the larger 150 HP options, While they still performed in all the other KPI's, there was no doubting, they were slugs.. There reliability and economy is now well and truly tested and proved, but I'm still of the opinion that putting them on heavy 6 meter fiberglass boats gave them a bad wrap. Luckily mine is only a 5.5 meter, which matches the engine performance perfectly.  

It doesn't take too much for anything these days, especially outboards, to be stigmatized by a "mate of a mates" experience, although I do admit, my only experience with Etec's wasn't that flash, with a friend twice being towed back out of Eden with blown powerheads, but I'll bet there's blokes out there that have had nothing but untroubled hours on the water that swear by them. Honda was another that got a bad wrap, had a mate with the same hull as mine, took the cheaper Honda special at the time, 60 kilo's over maximum outboard weight recommendation, which played havoc with the hull, simply too heavy, but that was a choice he made, not the brand as such fault.  If people " matched the hatch " as the saying goes, and did there homework and selected an engine that matched the performance they expected or wanted, issues like above wouldn't have happened. But that's life, sometimes it's the coin that makes the final decision on outboard choice, or indeed the previous owners choices..

 

[Fab1]

29 minutes ago, BaitDropper said:

That's for sure true !

It's always amused me how many people hold on to views about things, they maybe heard about an outboard from their dad, ie Mercury in there early days and the corrosion mantle stuck hard. It's human nature, the ford versus holden syndrome 😁..  I've had a selection of out board models over my journey, this time I went with the 140 Suk, didn't think I would ever have one of them after being in many of my mates boats, which all did inflame the " Weak " Engine label they were lumped with. In all honesty, I too labelled them Weak, which they were mated to heavy 6 meter boats that I had been in. They were the " bees knees" engine when they first came out and they were thrown on boats as a cheap HP option, compared to the larger 150 HP options, While they still performed in all the other KPI's, there was no doubting, they were slugs.. There reliability and economy is now well and truly tested and proved, but I'm still of the opinion that putting them on heavy 6 meter fiberglass boats gave them a bad wrap. Luckily mine is only a 5.5 meter, which matches the engine performance perfectly.  

It doesn't take too much for anything these days, especially outboards, to be stigmatized by a "mate of a mates" experience, although I do admit, my only experience with Etec's wasn't that flash, with a friend twice being towed back out of Eden with blown powerheads, but I'll bet there's blokes out there that have had nothing but untroubled hours on the water that swear by them. Honda was another that got a bad wrap, had a mate with the same hull as mine, took the cheaper Honda special at the time, 60 kilo's over maximum outboard weight recommendation, which played havoc with the hull, simply too heavy, but that was a choice he made, not the brand as such fault.  If people " matched the hatch " as the saying goes, and did there homework and selected an engine that matched the performance they expected or wanted, issues like above wouldn't have happened. But that's life, sometimes it's the coin that makes the final decision on outboard choice, or indeed the previous owners choices..

 

Only way to truly find out if YOU think anything is worth it, good or bad, reliable, etc is by pulling the pin and buying/ trying it out for yourself.What I may think is great you may think is crap and vice versa.Everyone has different budgets/ expectations etc for everything in this life.

At the end of the day it’s what you can afford, like and think is reliable, etc that matters.

Please don’t talk kpi’s on here while I’m on holidays as I don’t want to hear that crap they spiel on with at work plus the other million things that they do.😂

[noelm]

Yep, comparing outboards is a minefield of mis information, take (say) a 75 Mercury, it weighs a ton, way heavier than a Honda, and compared to a Yamaha 70, it’s a real heavyweight. But move up in HP, to about 200HP and the Mercury is a feather compared to the Honda. When buying a new motor, the best tip would be to research all models in the HP you want, make a list of price, weight, dealer reputation and real warranty (not some after market sales gimmick) the results can often be surprising how the tables turn in certain HP brackets.

[BaitDropper]

I know one thing for certain, it will take me the rest of my days to realize a saving, fuel wise, with the new 4 stroke, in comparison to the old 2 banger I swapped it for,, I'm simply not doing the expected hours on the water I thought I would be doing with it, mind you, I'm hoping to change that in the new year.

But Geez, its a pleasure to walk out to the boat now to give the engine a run, which I do about once a month, turn key and its instant 😁... I'm loving the 4 strokes.  The old 2 stroke took a tad more manipulating at times,, always fired up, but it was always in the back of your mind.

I thought about it the other day, cost of a new 4 stroke, versus the fuel usage of the old 2 stroke,, After too many return trips with the old motor from out wide, barely running on fumes, even with careful planning, I needed to change pure and simply because of how variable the fuel consumption was with the old Merc. Have to admit, that's the only reason I changed, it's power and reliability was never in question and that was over many hundreds of hours use, super easy to work on and if kept maintained, they would run for ever.

When I went thru the swap over after I arrived here on the south coast, it was probably extraordinary times I guess, after narrowing down my model choices, it was very very noticeable which dealers were taking a lean as far as pricing went. Supply was of course effecting everything during the crud virus times, but there was a fair hunk of gauging going on at the time. My choice was down to warrantee and servicing, I honestly believe there's not a bad outboard being produced now, there all good in my opinion.  I still had a price back in Melbourne for the Pro XS 115, The local dealer here, wanted near 5K more than that for the same engine, I could have towed the boat back to Victoria, stayed in a motel and covered all my fuel costs and still had coin left over. Happy with my choice in the end, great back up service from the local Suzuki dealer, even mobile servicing option.

But yep, homework is the key here and finding that dealer to look after you afterwards is huge...

[Fab1]

37 minutes ago, noelm said:

Yep, comparing outboards is a minefield of mis information, take (say) a 75 Mercury, it weighs a ton, way heavier than a Honda, and compared to a Yamaha 70, it’s a real heavyweight. But move up in HP, to about 200HP and the Mercury is a feather compared to the Honda. When buying a new motor, the best tip would be to research all models in the HP you want, make a list of price, weight, dealer reputation and real warranty (not some after market sales gimmick) the results can often be surprising how the tables turn in certain HP brackets.

It’s a mugs game not doing what your saying when buying anything let alone outboards.I do it with everything even with small purchases.

if I look on my phone or computer and say somethings $20 here and it’s $15 a kilometre up the road further guess who gets my $$.

To add to what you’re saying on outboards I’d be researching how much each costs to service and price of parts like timing belts,etc.

[Fab1]

16 minutes ago, BaitDropper said:

I know one thing for certain, it will take me the rest of my days to realize a saving, fuel wise, with the new 4 stroke, in comparison to the old 2 banger I swapped it for,, I'm simply not doing the expected hours on the water I thought I would be doing with it, mind you, I'm hoping to change that in the new year.

But Geez, its a pleasure to walk out to the boat now to give the engine a run, which I do about once a month, turn key and its instant 😁... I'm loving the 4 strokes.  The old 2 stroke took a tad more manipulating at times,, always fired up, but it was always in the back of your mind.

I thought about it the other day, cost of a new 4 stroke, versus the fuel usage of the old 2 stroke,, After too many return trips with the old motor from out wide, barely running on fumes, even with careful planning, I needed to change pure and simply because of how variable the fuel consumption was with the old Merc. Have to admit, that's the only reason I changed, it's power and reliability was never in question and that was over many hundreds of hours use, super easy to work on and if kept maintained, they would run for ever.

When I went thru the swap over after I arrived here on the south coast, it was probably extraordinary times I guess, after narrowing down my model choices, it was very very noticeable which dealers were taking a lean as far as pricing went. Supply was of course effecting everything during the crud virus times, but there was a fair hunk of gauging going on at the time. My choice was down to warrantee and servicing, I honestly believe there's not a bad outboard being produced now, there all good in my opinion.  I still had a price back in Melbourne for the Pro XS 115, The local dealer here, wanted near 5K more than that for the same engine, I could have towed the boat back to Victoria, stayed in a motel and covered all my fuel costs and still had coin left over. Happy with my choice in the end, great back up service from the local Suzuki dealer, even mobile servicing option.

But yep, homework is the key here and finding that dealer to look after you afterwards is huge...

I’ve been thinking the same thing as you on a much smaller scale with my boat.I thought many times about going from my very basic 30hp 2 stroke to a 40 yammy(I’m not interested in anything else).I owe $0 on my boat and a yammy is like 10k there abouts.10k buys alof of fuel.

I service my whole carby,fuel pump, impeller ,plugs with a 10 and 12mm spanner a flat head screwdriver and a pair of pliers, and a spark plug tool or even a shifter.

in short they can keep the 40.

 

Talking electric cars again I don’t owe anything on my Kia and hilux and service both myself doesn’t cost me a dime more than my parts I buy. Again just a basic electric is 40k+.That’s a lot of fuel and don’t you worry the government will make up for the petrol sales lost with a ev tax that will keep going up like the ridiculous tolls have over the years.

Agsin they can keep their evs for now.I’m fully aware their will come a time when anything you buy from mowers to cars will be electric.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Fab1

[Bryant fish]

While i agree most of the big players seem to be good i don’t think I would buy an etec even though the mechanic i use is a etec fan and reckons most problems are from mechanics not knowing what they were doing any owners I’ve spoken to are happy with them but the whole parts and resale put me off . I don’t know if I would have another toey either as parts are not easy to get but saying that the motor i brought new in I think 2003 has been great never let me down I suppose thats what happens when you buy used you dont no the history. The one that crapped itself i paid $800 for about 7 years ago so it has had issues but $800 who really cares thats the joy of a twin setup besides running out of fuel ( i have done stupidly) you should always get back . The extra expense does need to be taken into consideration and not sure if I would do a twin again especially when new motors seem to be so reliable 

[noelm]

There’s more to owning a 4 stroke than just fuel economy! simple turn key, instant starting, no messing around pumping primers, fiddling with levers and chokes, unrivalled quietness, idle for hours on end, the list goes on and on. But……of course servicing is more expensive, but you don’t burn oil all the time either, over time I think the total cost to own and operate wouldn’t be too different.

[Fab1]

23 minutes ago, noelm said:

There’s more to owning a 4 stroke than just fuel economy! simple turn key, instant starting, no messing around pumping primers, fiddling with levers and chokes, unrivalled quietness, idle for hours on end, the list goes on and on. But……of course servicing is more expensive, but you don’t burn oil all the time either, over time I think the total cost to own and operate wouldn’t be too different.

And a heap more to go wrong with 4 strokes that costs you $$$ when it does.

I did the comparison in my situation taking all those points into consideration and for me I’m thousands in front not even taking the purchase price into consideration.

One 4 stroke service alone costs more than I’ve spent on my  outboard in 12 yrs I’ve had it.

Things may be different for other people but for me it isn’t the case at alll.I’d be thousands behind literally going a 4 stroke but like everything these days you want a new motor now there’s no  choice.

 

 

 

[Fab1]

A bit like triple carby vs single.More to go wrong, triple the cost when you need to rebuild them.

simple with anything mechanical  is always best for the least breakdowns, headaches, cost,etc.

[BaitDropper]

While I do agree with the " more can go wrong factor "  with the modern 4 stroke, in all honesty, it seldom does.

I did all my own servicing on my previous 2 strokes, in fact tinkering with engines is a hobby, but because of warrantee reasons, I won't be servicing my 140 myself, till it's out of warrantee. One huge factor in owning a new 4 stroke, is it's reliability, yes, just like any other thing in life, things can go wrong at times, but the modern 4 stroke is pretty dam infallible if you look at them.  For me, fishing out wide, the two factors that dictated my 4  stroke purchase, was reliability and economy, period. For years I mounted a dam good argument about why I would keep my old 2 stroke going, pay back time, ease of working on them, not as much to go wrong with them as a modern 4 stroke, better hole shot etc etc, Well, apart from more expensive to maintain, the 4 stroke pretty much eats all the other old adages.  I guess at the end of the day, my pocket would be better off with the old 2 stroke, but, the benefits for me far out weigh the negatives.

I would agree with Noel's comment above, over the journey, lets say 3-4000 hours of the engines life, I'm betting too, it would probably end up costing the same. 

I do still miss the old 2 stroke, miss that 4.00am smell of 2 stroke oil 😁,  But, having regularly gone thru 160-180 liters of fuel heading out wide for a day, while similar boats with 4 strokes were barely using 80-90 litres, just did not sit well with me and became an issue on numerous occasions....   to have an outboard going full time all day without shutting her off , sometimes for up to 10 hours on end and not have that 2 stroke splutter issue, is an absolute game changer.

Horses for courses I guess.

[Bryant fish]

I have a main tank of 65 littes and carry ajerry can as well going through 150 or so litres at todays  pricedwould take a lot of fun out of it as I normally fish solo and wouldn’t be able to go as often and its been said before boats dont run on thanks i dont mind taking people out but if they want to regulars it doesn’t hurt to offer something . Guys I’ve worked with have run big 2 strokes and fuel bill is crazy 

[noelm]

This can be debated for ever (and it often is) but, in my opinion, once you get over about 30-40HP, owning a two stroke is out of the question for me. Using oil all the time, maintaining the oil injection system is all regular routine, really no different to a modern 4 stroke. More moving parts does not always relate to more to go wrong, in theory it might be debatable, but in practice, it’s just not so, but, that’s just my opinion, and I am quite happy with the two different brands I currently own, I am not brand loyal, and chose both for different reason. The Yamaha on my tinny has a design issue that I didn’t realise at the time, but I just live with it now.

[JustJames]

13 hours ago, noelm said:

here’s more to owning a 4 stroke than just fuel economy! simple turn key, instant starting, no messing around pumping primers, fiddling with levers and chokes, unrivalled quietness, idle for hours on end, the list goes on and on. But……of course servicing is more expensive

A fre months back I bought a new-to-me boat.  Part of the purchase decision was wanting a four stroke, but I was not fussed which four stroke.  The boat I ended up with has a Mercury 150, and I was pleasantly surprised to learn how straightforward the servicing is, well within the scope of anybody with any mechanical know how. 

Other brands may be just as straightforward, I haven't looked into them.

Point being, four stroke outboards are not necessarily more expensive to own than two strokes.  I have gone from a Yam 60 2 stroke on a 4.9 metre boat to a Merc 150 4 stroke pushing a 6.4 metre boat, and it looks like my fuel consumption is about the same...possibly slightly lower.

[noelm]

Yep, that about covers it, any 4 stroke is easy enough to service for anyone with reasonable mechanical skills, and pretty basic tools. But, be aware that a service is not just changing oil and filters, it’s water pumps, thermostats, power trim, anodes, steering maintenance and a hundred other things. A 4 stroke outboard is just a car engine on its end, cooled by raw salt water, nothing to be scared about. I don’t know how many times you read or hear “I have been a car mechanic for 20 years, but know nothing about outboards” it’s all just “nuts and bolts” when it’s all said and done. Most modern motors have self diagnostics built in, some proprietary software can be purchased, most are not necessary for basic service and repairs. Another bonus that most don’t realise is the progressive power, rather than a distinct power “band” of a 2 stroke, it suits boating really well. Don’t get me wrong, I have had 2 strokes for decades (it’s all we had at one point) and all of them have been OK, including a pair of the dreaded FICHT Evinrudes.

Edited September 25, 2023 by noelm

[JustJames]

39 minutes ago, noelm said:

But, be aware that a service is not just changing oil and filters, it’s water pumps, thermostats, power trim, anodes, steering maintenance and a hundred other things.

Spot on!  Beyond oil and filters, the items you mention are the same regardless of how many strokes there are.

 

I was merely focusing on the differences between 2 and 4 strokes. 

[noelm]

42 minutes ago, JustJames said:

Spot on!  Beyond oil and filters, the items you mention are the same regardless of how many strokes there are.

 

I was merely focusing on the differences between 2 and 4 strokes. 

Yeah, I get that, what I meant was just changing oil is not all that’s involved in doing a service.