E10 Fuel

[will_l]

Hi,

I went out yesterday for the first time since my motor got serviced 3 weeks ago. It took a litte while to start and once did cut out a few times, however this was a cold start and it was last started during the service so I was not too worried. Once warmed up, the boat went well at high revs and was driving fine. However once I dropped down to idle the revs slowly started to drop and then the motor stalled. This was a bit worrying but the motor started up fine, and once I got up too speed and higher revs the motor went well, but again every time I went to idle it cut out. In the end, on the way home, it cut out and was unable to be restarted so I had to get a tow home. Now, since the motor just got serviced I think it might be the e10 I used in the motor (which is a 2 stroke 70hp yamaha - Yr 2000), as around 7l had been sitting in the tank for around 2 months. So when I was driving yesterday the fuel would of been 7l of 2 month old e10 and 15l of brand new 95. The spark plugs are not fouled and I've tried different fuel lines. I'm scared I may of destroyed the carby.

Any idea on what to do?

Thanks a lot,

Will

[big Neil]

Starting with the obvious I assume that you added the correct amount of 2 stroke oil when you filled up with the 15 l of 95 octane. Assuming that you did that, the fuel (probably) isn't the problem as the amount of fresh fuel (mixed with the older fuel) should not have made a difference UNLESS there was water in the old fuel. It seems to be mentioned a lot that people have their motors serviced just prior to having these problems develop. Have you had your motor serviced by these people before and do you trust their work? I would definitely be contacting them for some advice on what they think may be the problem...given that you hadn't used the motor since the service was carried out. If they are reputable and care about customer service they should (at least) offer some helpful suggestions. My mate (who is a mechanic) says not to use e10 in any 2 stroke motor...unleaded or 95, he reckons. Good luck mate.

[f1shen]

E10 fuel isn't a good choice for outboards as the ethanol in it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. This causes your outboard to run rough, stall and so on. I find as well that it gunks up the carburettor quite a bit as well. Haven't had any problems since I switched to premium petrol.

[jeffb5.8]

Only use Premium in outboards, the cost is only a few $$ extra but it is saved in service cost and reliability.

1. Start with total fresh fuel and oil mix, clean the fuel line as well, dump or use the old fuel in your lawn mower

2. buy a can of carby cleaner along with a can of Start ya Bastrd.

3. New Plugs or at least use sand paper on the current ones to clean the varnish of the plugs

4. Spray the carby an wipe with a lint free cloth

5. Check you power connectors and coil & Spark plug leads for white marks.

6. Squirt of Start ya Bastrd and then try and start the motor and give it a run in a tank or with the Muffs on.

Hopefully its Key Start

If it starts but runs rough, do a test run at night in the dark, to see if there is a miss fire as you will see the spark jumping from the lead or coil.

[Sigma]

Hi will_I

I will second what Big Neil said about E10.

Since you mentioned that you haven't used it for a couple of months, and with all the rain we have had, it could be that you got moisture in your fuel as well.

It might be wise to dispose of the fuel in your tank, and start fresh. This might solve your problem....just another thought.

When it comes to fuel, my suggestion would be to not use E10 at all.

I realise that you said that you used 95 to top it up but it did have E10 in the tank originally.

I only use 98 on my 2000 model 115Hp Johnson.

Was told by the mechanic not to use anything else on the Johnson's as they are sensitive to low octane fuel.

I have to admit, I took my mechanics advice and she runs so much better.

I have never used E10 on any of my cars previously, and it only makes sense to use it on my boat.

Considering I get better mileage out of 98, this covers the extra $$$ I pay for 98.....and it keeps my fuel injection (car) or my carburetor on my outboard, nice and clean.

Lol....I even use 98 on my lawn mower.

[Guest Guest123456789]

The other problem with ethanol is its corrosive. 98 all the way for everything - price is more but cost is waaaayyyyy less.

[dogbox]

Hi I'm not expert i only use 95 or 98 Google says,

Ethanol Gasoline - General Problems/Issues:

1. Water Absorption!

Water Contamination (W/C) and Phase Separation (P/S) of gasoline;

Ethanol attracts, absorbs and holds moisture in fuel tank with increased occurrence of lean, water-diluted fuel.

2. Vapor lock or fuel starvation- Most common in carbureted engines, hot weather and/or at high altitude. (Ethanol increases gasoline's vapor pressure).

3. Drop in octane (after water absorption, P/S and W/C occurs).

4. Decreased fuel efficiency and mpg due to lower energy.

E10 Reformulated Gasoline = 111,836 BTU/gallon. Non-ethanol Gasoline = 114,000 BTU/Gallon. (Diesel and Kerosene Jet Fuel have about 129,000 BTU/gal).

5. Decreased life cycle of parts and engine.

6. Decreased shelf life of gasoline.

Engine/Parts Damage:

1. Wear and damage of internal engine parts.

2. Damage to metal, rubber, and plastic parts of fuel system.

3. Corrosion of metal parts in fuel system and engine.

4. Deterioration of elastomers and plastic parts.

5. Deterioration of non-metallic materials.

6. Fuel permeation through flexible fuel lines.

7. Drying, softening, stretching and/or cracking of rubber hoses,

seals and other rubber components.

8. Oxygen sensor damage.

9. Damage or premature disintegration of fuel pump.

10. Carburetor damage, including clogging.

11. Dirty and clogged fuel filters.

12. Clogging and plugging of fuel injectors.

13. Destruction of certain fiberglass fuel tanks.

14. Removal or fading of paint and varnish (both internal and external parts of engine).

15. Piston/bore failure through knock/pre-ignition.

16. Piston ring sticking.

17. Unsuitable ignition timing resulting in ignition failure.

18. Gumming-up of fuel injectors, carburetors, etc. due to release of accumulated deposits in engine from ethanol alcohol's solvent properties.

E10 Drivability Issues:

1. Engine performance problems, often simply due to lower energy of ethanol-blends.

2. Hard starting and operating difficulty.

3. Hesitation and lack of acceleration.

4. Stalling, especially at low speeds.

[Ric001]

E10, great for lawn movers chain saws but definitely not boats. I only use e10 in other people's vehicles because they've put it in at the pump, never my own vehicles. It's the lowest octane rated fuel and should never be used in boats. Most fuel pumps have a sign recommending not to use e10 for marine purposes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[will_l]

Cheers for all the suggestions all extremely helpful! I'm going to get a few litres of fresh 98 and drain the fuel line. I'll see if that alone gets it to start. If not, I'll give I'll try a bit of start ya bastard and give the carby a little spray. If that doesn't work, back to the mechanic . Shame really since when I conked out there was a school of salmon about 50m away that were going off for at least 30 mins and I was too far away

The motor is a 70 Yamaha electric start injected oil

Also I only ever use 95 however last time I took it out, I was in the central coast and the only fuel there was e10 as they ran out of the others so I just had to use it.

Will let you know how I go.

Cheers

Edited September 15, 2016 by will_l

[jeffb5.8]

P.s

Check that your outboard is injecting oil as a guy here at work found out his metering valve & his alarm on his Yamaha wasn't working, as the friction created he the motor would stop, then start again until it finally stopped, didnt sieze but must have been very close.

I sent him to Hayden from Shire Mobile Mechanic (Site Sponsor) and Hayden ended up rebuilding the motor. (P.s The outboard is running Great, he has done two trips since the rebuild)

[kiwicraig]

If ever you are going up to the Central Coast again if you happen to be near Woy Woy then the two service stations on the roundabout cnr of Rawson and Ocean Beach Road both have 95. (BP & Shell I think, I just go to the one that is easiest for the direction I am heading).

[kingfishbig]

Standard or 91 RON (ie ethanol free) is probably the best choice. The higher octane 95 and 98 fuels will lighten your wallet without conferring any benefits. Outboards are designed to run on pretty low octane (usually 87) so that they can be sold worldwide

Edited September 15, 2016 by kingfishbig

[Cargo05]

It could well be the fuel, but it wouldn't hurt to contact the business who undertook the service and explain the problem.

[Guest Guest123456789]

Standard or 91 RON (ie ethanol free) is probably the best choice. The higher octane 85 and 98 fuels will lighten your wallet without conferring any benefits. Outboards are designed to run on pretty low octane (usually 87) so that they can be sold worldwid

Interesting, different from my understanding, I thought higher octane fuels resulted in higher performance, better fuel economy and reduced engine wear. I need to do some testing, mythbusters style. Reckon two different fuel tanks, one with 91 and one with 98. Same service station, in calm conditions, run them WOT over the same distance and measure max speeds and amount of fuel burnt.

[lillie]

off the subject a bit but e10 makes lawn mowers, wipper snippers etc run hot which can cause problems. This is what I have been told

[JohnDory]

NEVER use E10 in:

1 Boats !!!!

2 In an Item which will sit for a period of time without use. IE All your fun toys, whipper snippers, chain saws, brush cutters, mowers, blowers, ...........

The Ethanol separates from the petroleum after a period of stand down time, causing damage to those precious loved ones.

I'm not a mechanic but have heard some bad stories from mechanics.

JD.

[zmk1962]

As per johndory post -- Stay away from E10 and marine applications or anything that has a layup period... I have written at length on this before... here is the link to the old posts http://www.fishraider.com.au/Invision/index.php?showtopic=74376&hl=chemical#entry560185

Regarding the post from flatheadluke about value of E10 vs 98. I drive a V8 landcruiser (not the most frugal machine on the road). I have experimented with E10 and 98. I need to keep log books for work/tax. It was not hard to calculate I get >15% more mileage from a 98 tank then from a E10 tank. Not to mention the better acceleration, performance etc. Its a no brainer for me what to fill up with.

Will_i, I suggest you drain your tank and change your fuel filter (it may have a separated a lot of water out of your old stale fuel and be full. This could be the reason why you have difficulty starting - its sucking water at start - but once started it runs ok at high revs as fuel is running past the water in the filter).

Then run fresh 95 or 98 with 2stoke oil through your motor. My advise is DONT let the motor sit too long as it is now as 2stroke motors use the fuel as lubricant... and right now you have E10 through your motor and bearings. Read my posts above.

PM me if you want to chat and I will send you my mobile number.

Cheers Zoran

[will_l]

Cheers again guys,

I hooked up a fresh tank of 98 octance I bought this afternoon and tired to kick the motor over, but unfortunately nothing. I drained the fuel line before starting as well. I messaged the mechanic and told him about the situation and mentioned the e10, which he now believes is the cause and he wants to check it out. I'll take it to him on Monday on the way to school. If he can diagnosis the problem as either my fault or his, he can order the exact genuine parts for me and I can have a go a trying to fix it up.

Cheers for the offer ZMK I'll let you know how it goes and see if I run into any troubles. Will try to get this fixed asap as having e10 sitting in the engine does not sound good.

Thanks again for all the help guys, really appreciate it.

Will

Edited September 15, 2016 by will_l

[tackleberry]

Interesting, different from my understanding, I thought higher octane fuels resulted in higher performance, better fuel economy and reduced engine wear. I need to do some testing, mythbusters style. Reckon two different fuel tanks, one with 91 and one with 98. Same service station, in calm conditions, run them WOT over the same distance and measure max speeds and amount of fuel burnt.

and don't be surprised when you find out that you used more fuel and got a slower WOT

as you need higher compression than you have to get the energy out of high octane fuel .

the higher the octane the less energy it has hence the higher the compression you need

to get the best out of it .

and another thing that E10 does to 2 strokes is cause more wear as the ethanol wash's the

oil off the bearings and the cylinder walls hence less protection from the oil .

[Guest Guest123456789]

Will sorry to have hijacked your post.

Tackleberry absolutely I'll be testing as again your understanding differs to mine. I thought that a fuel which needs more compression from the piston to ignite will produce more power (not less). More compression means more force downwards, then once ignition occurs more force upwards thus more power through the driveshaft. Newton's third law, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Another test I just thought of is my drive to work. I cross the mooney mooney bridge which is a large hill. I can measure the revs needed to power my car at 110kmh using 98 then try it again at 91. If the 98 uses lower revs that means more power I think.

[rickmarlin62]

if your mechanically minded drain your carbies ..there are hex head with screw slots on the bottom of the carbie bowls...spray some carbie cleaner in then pump some fuel through to flush..if capable pull carbies off and completely clean bowls..ive done this at broughton island after getting crap fuel..its not that difficult I have 60 yammie..identical setup takes twenty mins to clean them from start to finish...if not take it back to service guy and voice displeasure...rick

[kingfishbig]

If you have water in the carbies (or water ethanol mix) it might be hard to start the motor. Your mechanic should be able to dry them out using compressed air.

PS: outboard motors are low compression engines. To get any benefit out of high octane fuel you need a high compression engine.

[Guest Guest123456789]

If you have water in the carbies (or water ethanol mix) it might be hard to start the motor. Your mechanic should be able to dry them out using compressed air.

PS: outboard motors are low compression engines. To get any benefit out of high octane fuel you need a high compression engine.

I didn't know there were low and high compression engines, thanks. You might have saved me a lot of money.

[cameldownunder]

Make sure your idle is set correctly.

[tackleberry]

Will sorry to have hijacked your post.

Tackleberry absolutely I'll be testing as again your understanding differs to mine. I thought that a fuel which needs more compression from the piston to ignite will produce more power (not less). More compression means more force downwards, then once ignition occurs more force upwards thus more power through the driveshaft. Newton's third law, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Another test I just thought of is my drive to work. I cross the mooney mooney bridge which is a large hill. I can measure the revs needed to power my car at 110kmh using 98 then try it again at 91. If the 98 uses lower revs that means more power I think.

flatheadluke thats not different to what i said it the same the reason you can get 98ron is for high comp cars like the high performance holdens fords and all the European stuff now outboards in general don't have enough to get the benefit out

out of it now a prime example of this is diesel very low octane but more energy than avgas but you need 350 plus psi comp to burn it .

the general rule of thumb is low comp low octane high energy fuel and high comp high octane low energy fuel .