New steering cable and helm stiff?!

[AP3]

12 hours ago, noelm said:

Something completely unrelated, and I could be wrong, it might just be the angle when the photo was taken, but, is that a long shaft outboard on a short shaft transom?

Hi Noel, I think it's just the angle. The cavitation plate is about level with the bottom of the transom.

 

10 hours ago, frankS said:

Andy. I remember driving through your town, I remember the bridge that goes over the river reminded me of Conwy Wales. Delightful part of the world.

Frank

Hey Frank, we put her into the river right by that bridge! There's a pub at the slipway (The Two Brewers), if you're over here again, give me a shout and we can go for a pint!

 

9 hours ago, zmk1962 said:

I'm pretty sure it will solve it as well.  But have been thinking about the exploded diagram that Andy sent through and Andy's comment  .....

I actually think the hole closest to the motor is the tandem link for a dual motor outboard. I have drawn a sketch below.
 

Connecting in this way, still increases the leverage and gives a better angle between the Telfex and pivot point.

So as a first step Andy, perhaps just move the drag link to the hole closest to the bow of the boat. 

Cheers Zoran

Thanks Zoran, you should be an artist! I think other's comments about this reducing steering travel match up with what I've read online about this setup. I think it's worth a try though, so will give it a go! One think I did think is that using the further hole would limit which side an extra outboard could be connected, as the bar would clash with the drag link on one side. Not that I plan on adding another motor, but maybe that explains why the inner one seems to be the right hole?

I didn't move the motor connection of the drag arm when changing the cable. I'll try to get a video of it all at the weekend when the wife can hold a camera for me! For now I'm just going out and turning it a lot, hoping it'll free up some...

To answer some others, the play before was about a quarter turn of the wheel in either direction before the outboard would start to move, which I put down to a worn/stretched cable. I don't know how it acted new, as that was before I bought it.

Given that it all works fine with the drag link disconnected, I can only think that either the drag link is the issue, or that by adding the drag link, there's movement on the steering cable up/down/left/right in the tilt tube, and it's binding up there.

I keep seeing Youtube videos of cable steering being moved with a single finger, it's killing me!

 

[frankS]

The drag links I make have an adjustable ferrule on them that you can lengthen the drag link to compensate for the angle loss. maybe a boat dealer near you could sell you an adjustable drag link.

Frank

[AP3]

Hi Guys,

OK, a small update. I tried the other hole in the steering bracket, and it didn't make much difference to steering effort, and did reduce lock-to-lock, so I moved it back again.

The has "worked" a bit, it grease, grease, grease, on the cable going through the tilt tube, and moving the engine from lock to lock repeatedly. It's now actually quite smooth turning to starboard, but noticeably stiffer turning to port (on the trailer, so no torque).

Any ideas on this new problem? I don't think I've hydrolocked the cable, as it will turn hard to port, with some difficulty, and seems stiff throughout its travel.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[AP3]

@Mmg - Nah, I tried loosening the drag link nuts and it didn't make a difference. I do need to get a couple of new Nylocs on it though, as I've been messing with it.

The lock nut holding the cable into the tilt tube is proper tight though. Wouldn't want that coming off at speed!

[AP3]

1 hour ago, Mmg said:

That wouldnt be the problem would it?

im not sure they are supposed to be that tight, it might act like a telescopic gaff or landing net locking the movement Of the pole inside the other pole.

if you catch my drift,

That one needs to be tight, it holds the sheath of the cable onto the tilt tube, then the cable telescopes out of the sheath and through the tube to move the drag link.

I'm out on her tomorrow with some mates for a pub crawl, so I'll see how the steering behaves. Last time it got worse as the trip went on, and I was getting some gunk on the cable.

Anyone know if it's normal for the cable to be able to shift around laterally in the tilt tube? I can wobble mine around a fair it, and I wonder if it's binding up due to this. (about 1mm play).

Not looking forward to changing the tilt tube if that's the case... :/

[rickmarlin62]

Movement is normal  i replaced mine last week an can spin it with one finger on 90 yammie     out of curiosity if you remove drag link is it still easy to turn at wheel   also is the cable definitly locked in at join to helm

Edited March 22, 2019 by rickmarlin62

[AP3]

1 hour ago, rickmarlin62 said:

Movement is normal  i replaced mine last week an can spin it with one finger on 90 yammie     out of curiosity if you remove drag link is it still easy to turn at wheel   also is the cable definitly locked in at join to helm

Hi Rick,

If I disconnect the drag link, it's as smooth as butter! When connected, it was really stiff (a bit better now).

I can see the cable moving with the engine from lock to lock, it moves from binding in one diagonal to the other..

In your boat, can you move the steering cable in the tilt tube around, or is it held stead? Mine isn't a tight fit at all!

[rickmarlin62]

Its supposed to have room to move  the tube in the motor mount is sized for tube on cable that carries thinner inner rod that moves on end of teleflex

[AP3]

9 hours ago, rickmarlin62 said:

Its supposed to have room to move  the tube in the motor mount is sized for tube on cable that carries thinner inner rod that moves on end of Teleflex

I'm wondering if it should be a snug fit though, of have play. It seems a bit excessive, and the cable end moves at an angle instead of almost straight.

Could be normal I suppose, of my tilt tube is worn out.

[dunc333]

you can hone tilt tube out with long drill bit off memory its 24mm i have one somewhere i bought just for the reason ,i was going to say you can borrow Ap3 but i see its a bit of a drive from me the uk. mate just looking at the pics i think you should try and reverse bracket ,i had a old dt 50 for many years im sure its meant to face the bow but i could be wrong its been a while cheers dunc333

Edited March 25, 2019 by dunc333

[noelm]

I kind of doubt it's the play in the tilt tube, but anything's possible I guess, if you are going to replace it, get the aftermarket stainless one. I kind of think your issue is going to need some investigation, eliminating one thing at a time, even getting a helper to hold the motor while you turn the steering, then finding a way to hold the cable end to put pressure on it (without the motor connected) to see if it's the new helm, them holding the cable straight to see if it's the bends.

[AP3]

11 hours ago, dunc333 said:

you can hone tilt tube out with long drill bit off memory its 24mm i have one somewhere i bought just for the reason ,i was going to say you can borrow Ap3 but i see its a bit of a drive from me the uk. mate just looking at the pics i think you should try and reverse bracket ,i had a old dt 50 for many years im sure its meant to face the bow but i could be wrong its been a while cheers dunc333

From the 93 models onwards it's on the outside, as they don't have the handle: https://www.brownspoint.com/store/pc/BP_AP_AssemblyDetail.asp?ID=6395

But it seems definitely on the inside for a 90 model: https://www.brownspoint.com/store/pc/BP_AP_AssemblyDetail.asp?ID=6394

I might try again with some sandpaper taped to and old section of steering cable, and into a drill. Looks like it works well on youtube anyway!

 

[frankS]

Andy. Have you turned the bracket around to face the front of the boat  and tried it ?. If not please do so.

Don't worry about what the diagrams say just do it and try. I suggested this 10 days ago and it appears to me you have not done it as yet.

If this doesn't fix your problem I can't think of anything else you could do. 

Perhaps, maybe, when you fed the cable into the helm, maybe the screw parts of the cable and helm crownwheel didn't mesh in properly . But this is highly unlikely.

Frank

[rickmarlin62]

 I wouldnt recomen reaming out tube  it wont affect end bar that comes out other side its smaller diameter

[AP3]

17 hours ago, frankS said:

Andy. Have you turned the bracket around to face the front of the boat  and tried it ?. If not please do so.

Don't worry about what the diagrams say just do it and try. I suggested this 10 days ago and it appears to me you have not done it as yet.

If this doesn't fix your problem I can't think of anything else you could do. 

Perhaps, maybe, when you fed the cable into the helm, maybe the screw parts of the cable and helm crownwheel didn't mesh in properly . But this is highly unlikely.

Frank

Frank, I admit I didn't. I took a look at the motor at either lock, and determined that at full starboard lock, the drag link would be to long, and at full port lock, it would be to short. 

The good news is that I just reamed out the tilt tube with sandpaper stuck to an old bit of steering cable, attached to a drill, using loads of WD40, and got loads of gunk out. After spraying through with carb cleaner, I sprayed in white lithium grease, then cleaned and re-greased the cable, and it's a lot better!

Still somewhat harder to turn as you approach full lock either way, but it's a one arm job to steer now, so I'm going to call it fixed!

I'm still jealous of hydraulic steering though....maybe one day.

Thank you all for your advice and assistance. Really great bunch of people here! 

Cheers,

Andy

[frankS]

Andy. I can't understand why you don't take the advise I and others have offered to solve your problem. For the sake of a small amount of steering lock you would rather put up with stiff steering. Which over time is going to wear out the helm once again and you will end up having slack back in your steering.

You may be able to buy an adjustable steer rack from a boat dealer. If not send me a photo and size of your existing rack and I will make one for you and get a friend to take it back to UK in May and he could post it to you when he gets home.

Believe me IF you leave the rack as it is it WILL wear your helm very Quickly.

Frank

PS. There is a slight adjustment you can make at the Pinot tube where the cable enters and exits the Pinot tube ( pivit tube ) 

Edited March 26, 2019 by frankS

[AP3]

11 hours ago, frankS said:

Andy. I can't understand why you don't take the advise I and others have offered to solve your problem. For the sake of a small amount of steering lock you would rather put up with stiff steering. Which over time is going to wear out the helm once again and you will end up having slack back in your steering.

You may be able to buy an adjustable steer rack from a boat dealer. If not send me a photo and size of your existing rack and I will make one for you and get a friend to take it back to UK in May and he could post it to you when he gets home.

Believe me IF you leave the rack as it is it WILL wear your helm very Quickly.

Frank

PS. There is a slight adjustment you can make at the Pinot tube where the cable enters and exits the Pinot tube ( pivit tube ) 

Hi Frank,

Please believe me that I'm taking in as much information as I can, and have looked at all the options. Looking at other outboards, the bracket is usually the other way around, but is also mounted a lot closer to the cowling. On this motor, because it has a forward carry handle, they chose to put the bracket the other way around attached to it.

If I moved the bracket forward of the handle, in theory I'd have more leverage on the motor, but the drag link is too short, and a longer drag link might be subject to extra force required from the cable. I made a (very bad and simplistic) drawing of what I mean (attached). The geometry of it just doesn't look right to me?! Green would be the existing drag link, and red the forward position.

I'm not sure what you mean by an adjustable steering rack? I have a rotary helm, and no space for a rack. Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean. 

Thanks for your continuing help!

Cheers,

Andy

[frankS]

Andy. sorry mate meant drag link not rack.

Andy it would take you about 5 minutes of your time to take the bracket off and turn it around and at least try it.

I wish we were close and I would come and do it myself.

If it doesn't make your steering smoother then I will apologise and leave you to work it out your way.

If it proves me right but the drag link you have is too short then I will make you one that will fit, I can't be fairer than that.

Frank

[AP3]

8 hours ago, frankS said:

Andy. sorry mate meant drag link not rack.

Andy it would take you about 5 minutes of your time to take the bracket off and turn it around and at least try it.

I wish we were close and I would come and do it myself.

If it doesn't make your steering smoother then I will apologise and leave you to work it out your way.

If it proves me right but the drag link you have is too short then I will make you one that will fit, I can't be fairer than that.

Frank

Hi Frank,

Well that level of generosity is something I've never come across over here, so how could I turn you down!

Ok, I swapped the bracket over to the otherside.

This is it before:

This is it after:

I have to say the steering effort is significantly improved with the bracket moved forward. I have my cap in my hand, and Stephen Hawking yelling at me from beyond the grave about paying more attention on physics lessons.

Anyway, you can see the reduced lock in both directions in the second video. If my physics are right (just shoot me now), then a longer drag link should remedy this.

Here's the current drank link along with a tape measure: https://imgur.com/wwYHO0j

I guess the best way to measure the right length is to disconnect the drag link, move the outboard to full lock, and measure between the 2 holes (steering cable and steering bracket)?

Cheers,

Andy

 

[zmk1962]

3 hours ago, AP3 said:

I guess the best way to measure the right length is to disconnect the drag link, move the outboard to full lock, and measure between the 2 holes (steering cable and steering bracket)?

Andy,

Great that you tried moving the bracket. You can also try connecting the drag link to the 2nd hole on the bracket (closer to the motor) to see if you still have enough leverage to steer with ease, and how much extra motor rotation that 2nd hole buys you.

Regarding drag link length:

I hope my two diagrams below explain how to find the ideal drag link length, it would be way too hard to try and write that up....

 

As you can see in the diagram, the max movement from the cable in each direction is L/2. The drag link just translates that exact movement length L/2 to the bracket connection point on your motor. 

The closer the bracket connection point to the motor pivot shaft the more rotation you will get out of the motor.

The ideal draw link length is where L/2 movement drives your motor rotation to full lock either way but you still get the leverage to turn the motor with ease (as you have just discovered).  You may never be able to achieve that ideal length given the specific layout of your motor, the bracket location, and steering cable anchor location - so like everyone else we all compromise when it comes to this geometry problem. 

Anyway, once you have worked out your L/2 measurement. You can hold a tape measure across each of the bracket holes and see how much extra rotation each hole buys you vs steering effort. 

You measure "your ideal"  drag link length once you have established which bracket hole you wish to use.

Cheers Zoran

 

 

[frankS]

Andy. It is easy to see that the existing drag link is too short. I will make you an adjustable one that will adjust from 11 1/2 " as your original to 14 " that should give you plenty of length so that way you can adjust the length to the optimum length. OR do as you say and take link off and put on full lock and measure between holes. I don't think steering on any boat goes all the way from full lock to full lock, I think they all come up a little short of full lock. 

My friend John ( Snatcher ) is in Sydney on holidays till start of May and I have to go and see him shortly so I will ask him if he would be willing to take the link back with him to the UK and post it from there. Other wise IF you need it sooner you would have to PM me with some details and I could post it from here, and I would need some postage money!!!. Don't need anything for the drag link just enough for postage to get it to you.

Cheers Frank

[frankS]

59 minutes ago, zmk1962 said:

Andy,

Great that you tried moving the bracket. You can also try connecting the drag link to the 2nd hole on the bracket (closer to the motor) to see if you still have enough leverage to steer with ease, and how much extra motor rotation that 2nd hole buys you.

Regarding drag link length:

I hope my two diagrams below explain how to find the ideal drag link length, it would be way too hard to try and write that up....

 

As you can see in the diagram, the max movement from the cable in each direction is L/2. The drag link just translates that exact movement length L/2 to the bracket connection point on your motor. 

The closer the bracket connection point to the motor pivot shaft the more rotation you will get out of the motor.

The ideal draw link length is where L/2 movement drives your motor rotation to full lock either way but you still get the leverage to turn the motor with ease (as you have just discovered).  You may never be able to achieve that ideal length given the specific layout of your motor, the bracket location, and steering cable anchor location - so like everyone else we all compromise when it comes to this geometry problem. 

Anyway, once you have worked out your L/2 measurement. You can hold a tape measure across each of the bracket holes and see how much extra rotation each hole buys you vs steering effort. 

You measure "your ideal"  drag link length once you have established which bracket hole you wish to use.

Cheers Zoran

 

 

Zoran. Thanks so much for your help in helping Andy with his problem, your drawings have been a great benefit for him believing that our suggestions may in fact work. I hope between us ( and all others that have contributed to try and help ) that his steering problems are overcome and he can get on the water with good steering ( probably the first time since he has owned the boat ) .

Cheers Frank

[zmk1962]

12 minutes ago, frankS said:

Zoran. Thanks so much for your help in helping Andy with his problem, your drawings have been a great benefit for him believing that our suggestions may in fact work. I hope between us ( and all others that have contributed to try and help ) that his steering problems are overcome and he can get on the water with good steering ( probably the first time since he has owned the boat ) .

Cheers Frank

All the best Frank ! ... I just contributed where time allowed... you did the hard yards mate... ontop of that you made the most generous offer.

It was obvious to me the bracket had to move... but then I had the benefit of previously solving a steering problem on two motors that I wanted to interlink - where each motor had different dimensions, was mounted at a different height and distance on the transom, had different lock to lock movement, different pivot points .... and the linkage had to work with either motor tilted up or in down position.  I was told it was impossible - the geometry and compromises nearly did my head in and I had to learn to weld s/s (my first effort) but I got it done... here's the frankenstein connection in all its glory :

note: when in use a strong bungy cord connects diagonally across the pivots to keep tension on all the swivel points.

Cheers Zoran

 

[frankS]

Zoran. I take my hat off to you mate, something like that is pure brilliant, If I was faced with a problem like that I think I would just use the motors individually. Great what the mind can come up with in solving problems.

Frank

[Nolongeramember]

6 hours ago, AP3 said:

Hi Frank,

Well that level of generosity is something I've never come across over here, so how could I turn you down!

Ok, I swapped the bracket over to the otherside.

This is it before:

This is it after:

 

Anyway, you can see the reduced lock in both directions in the second video. If my physics are right (just shoot me now), then a longer drag link should remedy this.

 

This has softened the steering but now there is a new problem.

I’m no expert but to me the reduced lock is there to stay if you leave the bracket in the forward position. Changing the drag link to the correct length wont give you more lock, it will just even each side. 

Looking at the second video, I would not be satisfied with that amount of lock to lock that you now have. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Hateanchors