Evinrude/BRP

[noelm]

[GoingFishing]

3 minutes ago, noelm said:

I give up, I read the report on the BRP website this morning, posted it for interested parties, I have no interest in my engines better than yours debates, I suggest you fully read the manufacturers report yourself.

My point is....what you have (intentionally) failed to point out is that boat sales have declined globally in general...all outboard manufacturers have reported declining sales, including all the other big brands. 

You suggested COVID was just a smoke screen and that etecs "had it coming" since a while ago...that's where I disagree. In tough economic times people tend to save their money instead of spending and the first things to get cut off are the luxuries such as boating.

Clearly the economic impacts of corona will be felt for many years to come and I feel BRP has made a conscious decision to cut off the arm to save the body.

Etecs are a bloody good engine and there are thousands of boaties who tell u the same thing.

 

[noelm]

Once again, I am not saying they are not good, I can't make it any more simple, I am stating documented fact, of course the Covid virus has affected sales, but the affect is across the board, Yamaha and Mercury have increased sales during the same financial period, and continue to grow, Suzuki sales are above BRP last quarter, Honda are close to BRP in total units sold globally. It's sad, the name Evinrude has been around for decades, lots of people will lose their jobs, it's not just a matter of how good you think your motor is, or whether they should should be in business, they tried and failed, done and dusted, no one is smirking, there is no winner in this.

[jeffb5.8]

57 minutes ago, GoingFishing said:

. In fact they were so popular that Australia's biggest and most reputable boat manufacturer (Telwater /Quintrex) stood behind the brand and was bolting etecs onto their boats in the factories in QLD.......so your theory about declining sales is absolute (with respect). Garbage.

You do know that BRP own Telwater?

that's why they pushed Etecs onto the boat, it was part of keeping the outboard manufacture viable.

 

P.s

I like my Etec 115hp and by the time I am upgrading the market will have advance so much it wont matter todays 2 stroke v 4 stroke debate.

Edited May 28, 2020 by jeffb5.8

[antonywardle]

bugger.

Got an email from fishing world about it today too.

I like my etec, but it seems that they may now be going the way of Nokia and Kodak. I'll guess I'll wait and see what @jeffb5.8 gets as his next engine and the quiz him about if it is any good! Thanks posting the articles @noelm, and @GoingFishing, I agree, ETECs are very good engines.

 

 

 

[jeffb5.8]

2 hours ago, GoingFishing said:

2 hours ago, noelm said:

 

Telwater has no such contract with Mercury. Fabricated statements just like your financial stats buddy. 

I also just read that Telwater will use Mercury as their engines from now on, So all Quintrex, Stacer and Yellow Fin plate boats.

[GoingFishing]

12 minutes ago, jeffb5.8 said:

I also just read that Telwater will use Mercury as their engines from now on, So all Quintrex, Stacer and Yellow Fin plate boats.

Gutted mate.......a real shame.

[noelm]

I tried to find the document with units sold globally by brand, I found it before, but it's vanished now, I know it sounds kind of nerd like, but I check stuff like BRP (well boating in general really) financial stuff regularly, and look at sales data (once again please, I am not saying which motor is best, that has nothing to do with it) and Evinrude sales have been sliding more and more each quarter for a couple of years. Huge companies like BRP do not operate on emotion or loyalty, it's sales and cash flow. 

 What worries me in a kind of way is they bought boat brands world wide to fit their motors exclusively to, the term is "buying transoms" the big one for us was Telwater, they tried behind the scenes (so I am told) to produce their brand Quintrex, Stacer, Savage and Yellowfin to be a complete package only deal, the independent dealers more or less were going to be only buy their product as packages, complete with an e-tec, why that changed, I really don't know, but, it scares me that BRP could send manufacturing offshore, effectively killing jobs here, possibly lowering quality, or, simply packing up and ditching Telwater altogether, just like the e-tec.

[noelm]

9 hours ago, jeffb5.8 said:

I also just read that Telwater will use Mercury as their engines from now on, So all Quintrex, Stacer and Yellow Fin plate boats.

Yes, it's all in the document I posted, perhaps I should have posted that first thing? Mind you, a few years ago, Mercury were fitted to Telwater package deals, they also had the Chinese made Vortex for a while, but that partnership fizzled out, then BRP purchased Telwater and fitted e-tecs on the turnkey packages, I still think the brand will reappear in 4 stroke form, plus BRP (and the Evinrude name) are not leaving the marine market, it's just the e-tec they have dumped.

[Berleyguts]

BRP’s statement said that they will now be focussing On “the next generation of propulsion”. I was told that this concept is called “ghost propulsion”. Curious what that is. Also, I suppose down track someone’s bound to explore large viable electric boat motors... 🤔

[Berleyguts]

Found this in an an article re BRP from October 2019:

“Project Ghost, by contrast, will try to provide more usable space on outboard boats by hiding the engines. The goal, Crocker said, is “to deliver a better boating experience by designing an integrated outboard engine and boat product for consumers delivered from the factory.” The webcast shows two pontoons with Ghost engines that are integrated into the stern area. It also showed a Quintrex boat with the same type of engine configuration.“

[Welster]

1 hour ago, noelm said:

I tried to find the document with units sold globally by brand, I found it before, but it's vanished now, I know it sounds kind of nerd like, but I check stuff like BRP (well boating in general really) financial stuff regularly, and look at sales data (once again please, I am not saying which motor is best, that has nothing to do with it) and Evinrude sales have been sliding more and more each quarter for a couple of years. Huge companies like BRP do not operate on emotion or loyalty, it's sales and cash flow. 

 What worries me in a kind of way is they bought boat brands world wide to fit their motors exclusively to, the term is "buying transoms" the big one for us was Telwater, they tried behind the scenes (so I am told) to produce their brand Quintrex, Stacer, Savage and Yellowfin to be a complete package only deal, the independent dealers more or less were going to be only buy their product as packages, complete with an e-tec, why that changed, I really don't know, but, it scares me that BRP could send manufacturing offshore, effectively killing jobs here, possibly lowering quality, or, simply packing up and ditching Telwater altogether, just like the e-tec.

Noel do the separate out Telwater figures?  Do you have any idea on its profitability. 
 

I am thinking if BRP bought Telwater to prop up its outboard sales maybe they will put Telwater back on the market.    If BRP overpaid maybe the original owners would buy it back?  Hopefully it ends up in Aussie hands with manufacturing still here. 

[noelm]

Telwater is profitable as it stands, not saying (don't know) what BRP plans are long term, but, in my opinion, it is a concern for us, they may just continue as is, but with Mercury outboards fitted, let's hope that happens, if they sell, let's hope it stays here and not go offshore. We need to read the document, BRP are not selling the technology or the name, Mercury have not bought anything, it's just an agreement to fit Mercury engines to all BRP owned boat manufacturers, BRP have been working on an integrated power plant for ages now named "ghost" limited details seem to indicate it's a small power plant kind of hidden in the stern, like a small inboard outboard gizmo. A few manufacturers disappeared and came back better, Suzuki made early 2 strokes and pioneered oil injection, but they fizzled out and came back years later with a 4 stroke, the early ones were dubious, then they supplied engines under the Johnson name for OMC, but they were dropped later in favour of 2 stroke high technology engines, the future is "interesting" that's for sure.

[achjimmy]

BRP are largely owned by an equity firm “Bain capitol” like most equity companies it’s just dollars (lots) and cents (not much) to them. As reported here year  on year sales have slid for etec brand and these equity firms can be brutal and I’ve been involved with a “Bain “ acquired company before. Decisions can be made very fast . FYI is Bain rings a bell it’s because they are chasing Virgin AU .

In reality as good as these motors may have been the average punter buying a boat package and has very little clue will have one thing honed into them “buy a four stroke “  and that would have been very detrimental to the brand . 

Edited May 28, 2020 by achjimmy

[GoingFishing]

1 hour ago, achjimmy said:

in reality as good as these motors may have been the average punter buying a boat package and has very little clue will have one thing honed into them “buy a four stroke “  and that would have been very detrimental to the brand . 

You have smashed the nail on its head mate.

When i was shopping for my first boat all my mates who had boats and even the dealers were on the trumpet about 4 strokes, i test ran a few boats and almost ended up with a boat+yammie option.

Then i test ran my (then) Quintrex renegade with a 75HP etec on the back, and it was punching torque and speed faster than most of the 100HP 4 strokes I had trialed.

Etec,Yamaha, Merc, Suzuki. All very good engines.

Sad to see the etec go. Sad fact is, some boaties write them off without even giving them a test run. Anyone who test runs these engines will see the noticeable difference in performance.

Just a note - there seems to be alot of comments about "they tried and failed". This seems comical. Evinrude has been around for decades, producing 2 strokes for decades. Thats not trial and error. The 2 stroke product they had sold well and sold well for a very long time until only recently.

Edited May 28, 2020 by GoingFishing

[noelm]

This always comes back to the my engines better than yours, when it has half of nothing to do with what's happened, comparing motors to decades ago makes no sense, that's all there was, carby 2 strokes, the reason for that was easy, they were cheap to make, were lightweight, fuel was cheap, no one cared if they were noisey or smoked, but you wouldn't stand for that in a car, that's why no 2 stroke cars were common. When EFI hit the scene, things changed, old Smokey 2 strokes idled well, had oil injection and smoke was limited, enter strict emission laws for recreational products (it had been law in cars for decades) most manufacturers tried making the 2 stroke comply (Yamaha HPDI and Mercury Optimax , plus others) however, the laws got tighter tighter, and most dropped 2 strokes altogether, except Evinrude, they persisted, and in the end, to comply, the motors had to run on minimal oil, very lean fuel mixture and a unique fuel injector, the engines were/are running right on the edge of lubrication, Evinrude tried, making better engines, trying for lighter engines and long service intervals, but, the masses didn't take it up, why?? don't know.

[GoingFishing]

59 minutes ago, noelm said:

This always comes back to the my engines better than yours, when it has half of nothing to do with what's happened, comparing motors to decades ago makes no sense, that's all there was, carby 2 strokes, the reason for that was easy, they were cheap to make, were lightweight, fuel was cheap, no one cared if they were noisey or smoked, but you wouldn't stand for that in a car, that's why no 2 stroke cars were common. When EFI hit the scene, things changed, old Smokey 2 strokes idled well, had oil injection and smoke was limited, enter strict emission laws for recreational products (it had been law in cars for decades) most manufacturers tried making the 2 stroke comply (Yamaha HPDI and Mercury Optimax , plus others) however, the laws got tighter tighter, and most dropped 2 strokes altogether, except Evinrude, they persisted, and in the end, to comply, the motors had to run on minimal oil, very lean fuel mixture and a unique fuel injector, the engines were/are running right on the edge of lubrication, Evinrude tried, making better engines, trying for lighter engines and long service intervals, but, the masses didn't take it up, why?? don't know.

You must be blind mate because i couldnt make it any clearer. This isnt about what is better than what.

"Etec,Yamaha, Merc, Suzuki. All very good engines"

Evinrude didnt "try" making better,lighter engines with longer service intervals.

They succeeded...........Take it from me ive owned etec for 8 years. The technology and benefits they offered their customers are proven, real... tangible. If you ever took one minute to drive an Etec you would understand.

Sales didnt go ahead because closed minded boaties couldnt open their eyes to see the good infront of them...😎 They just werent given a fair go mate.

For every time you want to claim that Etecs are gone because the tech is outdated, you will find an etec owner replying saying your wrong.

I dont know why BRP have decided to cut off the arm, but i do know its NOT because of the reasons you claim.

Edited May 29, 2020 by GoingFishing

[Welster]

56 minutes ago, GoingFishing said:

 

Sales didnt go ahead because closed minded boaties couldnt open their eyes to see the good infront of them...😎 They just werent given a fair go mate

It's starting to sound like Preston Tucker with the world (Government and night manufacturers) against him building the 48.  😂😂

Edited May 29, 2020 by Welster
Forgot 😂

[PaddyT]

Doesnt actually matter as to why they are stopping, market was shrinking for them and has been for a while, as Noel said the actual market figures were hard to find but it is my understanding that they had the lowest market share in the US of all the makers. In OZ they grabbed a bit more share purely because of the Telwater tie up . Lots of business's out there that ignore the needs and wants of the market and sounds like this is one of them- inevitable result really. I just feel sorry for anyone who has one on the back of their boat now- resale was poor to begin with,it will now be terrible.

[GoingFishing]

9 minutes ago, PaddyT said:

Doesnt actually matter as to why they are stopping, market was shrinking for them and has been for a while, as Noel said the actual market figures were hard to find but it is my understanding that they had the lowest market share in the US of all the makers. In OZ they grabbed a bit more share purely because of the Telwater tie up . Lots of business's out there that ignore the needs and wants of the market and sounds like this is one of them- inevitable result really. I just feel sorry for anyone who has one on the back of their boat now- resale was poor to begin with,it will now be terrible.

Cant say that the needs and wants of the market were ignored. Lots of happy etec owners out there that stand by the product. 

[PaddyT]

not enough it seems

[jeffb5.8]

6 hours ago, GoingFishing said:

Sales didnt go ahead because closed minded boaties couldnt open their eyes to see the good infront of them...😎 They just werent given a fair go mate.

Yeah that's one angle but you could also flip that and say, that the 4 stroke tech was developing to a point where it became the wanted item by the market place.

I know if I was shopping for a boat now, its simply read all the reviews on the Web (Forums & Boat sales, Club Marine,Fishing identities, YouTube and check out the sales brochures then decide what suits me.

When you have 4 of the 5 top manufactures all sprouting about the benefits of 4 stroke, that's 4 times the marketing power for 4 stroke tech rather than one outboard manufacturer talking up what is considered by many as Old Tech 2 stroke even though BRP had refined the tech to actually be the latest tech..

The 4 strokes became lighter, more fuel efficient, quieter and cheaper to run, so the gap to Etecs had closed significantly over the last 3yrs.

As for resale, I don't think it will drop much more than they already have, BRP were selling Etec G2's with 10yr warranties and they are not going out of business, So parts support will be there, dealer options may suffer as they switch brands

BRP are focusing on the 8 or so other business streams which are performing better or are the future of BRP.

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by jeffb5.8

[noelm]

3 hours ago, GoingFishing said:

You must be blind mate because i couldnt make it any clearer. This isnt about what is better than what.

"Etec,Yamaha, Merc, Suzuki. All very good engines"

Evinrude didnt "try" making better,lighter engines with longer service intervals.

They succeeded...........Take it from me ive owned etec for 8 years. The technology and benefits they offered their customers are proven, real... tangible. If you ever took one minute to drive an Etec you would understand.

Sales didnt go ahead because closed minded boaties couldnt open their eyes to see the good infront of them...😎 They just werent given a fair go mate.

For every time you want to claim that Etecs are gone because the tech is outdated, you will find an etec owner replying saying your wrong.

I dont know why BRP have decided to cut off the arm, but i do know its NOT because of the reasons you claim.

You need to really understand what's being written, no one said e-tec engines were no good, no one said they were outdated (quite the opposite actually) BRP don't care if you and some others reckon your motor is the best ever made, the simple FACT is, the masses didn't think like you, nothing more, nothing less, sales are poor, check my BRP sales data, that's why they pulled the pin, the 2 stroke V 4 stroke debate is not in question, you need to move on from that, it hurts current owners, can't deny that, but it's done, the fat lady has sung the last song, and it was not good.

[PaddyT]

17 minutes ago, noelm said:

You need to really understand what's being written, no one said e-tec engines were no good, no one said they were outdated (quite the opposite actually) BRP don't care if you and some others reckon your motor is the best ever made, the simple FACT is, the masses didn't think like you, nothing more, nothing less, sales are poor, check my BRP sales data, that's why they pulled the pin, the 2 stroke V 4 stroke debate is not in question, you need to move on from that, it hurts current owners, can't deny that, but it's done, the fat lady has sung the last song, and it was not good.

hit the nail on the head Noel , commercial realities meant the ROI to continue were not sufficient to keep going. The marketing was flashy but aimed at the whole idea of " going faster", fine for the waterski set and those who chase the fastest fish in the world (bream) but the big buyers of outboards spend 90 % of their time with the motor in idle (think commercial fisho, oyster farmer,tour operator ,other commercial fleets etc etc) , and they dont want to buy special two stroke oil and they never had the service/supply chain that Yammie etc has developed. The first Gen engines had a reputation (deserved or otherwise) that sullied the whole brand-especially coming on the back of the FICHT problems and the winding up of the OMC corporation. My only personal experience of ETEC was a mates engine (yes i know its a cliche) that had heaps of problems with injectors/ignition/dropping back into safety mode for no reason and it didnt help that the local dealer screwed him around endlessly. The other issue I had with them is they are damn loud compared to my 4. Again i restate that the current owners are going to get very badly whacked for resale-sad for them.

[dunc333]

i think the etecs were under rated .alot of problems were caused by lack of know how in the rigging and fuel system setups by dealers that were not up to speed with these  hi tec engines.all new outboard brands are good these days and all brands have lemons ,I wonder if brp will sell the etec knowledge to another manufactuer ,and the ghost project ,i have seen some pics and they look like a inboard pod system maybe electical propulsion time will tell .i have a merc 4 stroke and its fine for what i do .the etec does get out of the blocks mighty faster than any other outboard ive driven cheers dunc333