Silly string leader knot?

[NoMoreDonuts]

Hey there Raiders!

After months of viewing the site as a guest I finally joined the community. As a new lure fisho (after 20yr hiatus from bait fishing) I’ve learnt so much from all the amazing knowledge on the site, so thanks to everyone who contributes.

I was wondering what leader knot people use for super light leaders? I’ve been using an FG on 8lb leader, which has worked great and I’m finally getting decent at tying it. But on the weekend, 3hrs into a session targeting bream without a single bite and way too many lost lures, I tried switching to 4lb in the hope of something, anything happening. It was my first time tying an FG with 4lb and it was all good until I tried tightening the knot down and the leader snapped. I was too frustrated to try another FG in the wind so I went back to a double uni.

So I guess my real question is, is an FG a feasible knot for super light leader (and I just need to ease off and not tighten it down so much) or should I not bother and go with a double uni or something else with the silly string? 

Thanks in advance for your wisdom!

[Little_Flatty]

 @NoMoreDonuts!

I occasionally break out the silly string myself, when I need that edge in clear water. Heart in mouth stuff if you get a good flatty though.

Personally, I use a uni out of laziness and because the leader knot is tiny anyway. I have heard people here say that they use an FG because of the close to 100% knot strength. Are you sure you weren't putting too much tension on the line? 4lb leader is quite easy to break with just hand strength. That said, I have to admit I've had problems with (my badly tied) FGs.

[Mike Sydney]

I use the double uni but did have a few sessions with an Improved Albright knot which one of the users here recommended (Yowie maybe?) . It performed exceptionally well on 6lb/6lb and I really should go back to it.

[Little_Flatty]

39 minutes ago, Mike Sydney said:

I use the double uni but did have a few sessions with an Improved Albright knot which one of the users here recommended (Yowie maybe?) . It performed exceptionally well on 6lb/6lb and I really should go back to it.

I think it might have been @Pickles. @Yowie mostly uses handlines and does not need to concern himself with braid to fluro nonsense 🤣

I've been experimenting with using an improved slim beauty for my connections. It's nowhere near as compact as an FG but it seems that the knot strength is good and is very easy to tie. That said, I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible to tie on < 6lb flurocarbon. It's not terrible through the guides either, though @DerekD has managed to convince me not to use wind-on leaders anymore. So the compactness of the knot is no longer a concern.

[Yowie]

6 minutes ago, Little_Flatty said:

I think it might have been @Pickles. @Yowie mostly uses handlines and does not need to concern himself with braid to fluro nonsense 🤣

 

I do use braid, but only outside. 20 pound braid, mainly for flathead drifting, and I use a swivel between braid and mono leader, AND, not whilst handlining.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Yowie

[Little_Flatty]

Just now, Yowie said:

I do use braid, but only outside. 20 pound braid, mainly for flathead drifting, and I use a swivel between braid and mono leader.

Interesting. I've only heard of one other who did that. But it works. I read a really interesting book by Sol Bannura during lockdown and he mentioned he used metal for all of his braid to leader connections. Like @DerekD he doesn't use long leaders and you can't argue with his results (literally a ton of mulloway caught on lures over the years).

[DerekD]

Before we get into knot comparisons: What is your mainline (braid) strength? The FG knot works because the smaller diameter braid bites into the leader. So with a 20lb braid and say 10lb mono I would expect it to slip. If you are using a skinny 4lb braid to a 4lb leader then I expect it should work. 4lb braid to 6lb mono works.

[NoMoreDonuts]

1 hour ago, Little_Flatty said:

 Are you sure you weren't putting too much tension on the line? 4lb leader is quite easy to break with just hand strength. That said, I have to admit I've had problems with (my badly tied) FGs.

Thanks for the welcome!

Yeah,  I’m pretty sure I put too much tension on but from all the FG tying videos I watched it seems like you need a lot of tension for it to hold properly. So I wonder if going easy on the tension will compromise the hold? And maybe it’s not worth the effort tying FGs with light leader?
 

As you said, with leader that light the uni knot is pretty small anyway.

[NoMoreDonuts]

1 hour ago, Mike Sydney said:

I use the double uni but did have a few sessions with an Improved Albright knot which one of the users here recommended (Yowie maybe?) . It performed exceptionally well on 6lb/6lb and I really should go back to it.

Thanks I’ve never tried an Improved Albright. I’ll have to check it out 🙂

[NoMoreDonuts]

1 hour ago, Little_Flatty said:

 I've been experimenting with using an improved slim beauty for my connections.  It's not terrible through the guides either, though @DerekD has managed to convince me not to use wind-on leaders anymore. So the compactness of the knot is no longer a concern.

Sounds interesting. Anything that’s easier to tie than an FG can only be a good thing 😆

[NoMoreDonuts]

23 minutes ago, DerekD said:

Before we get into knot comparisons: What is your mainline (braid) strength? The FG knot works because the smaller diameter braid bites into the leader. So with a 20lb braid and say 10lb mono I would expect it to slip. If you are using a skinny 4lb braid to a 4lb leader then I expect it should work. 4lb braid to 6lb mono works.

I think you might have found my problem. I was tying 4lb fluoro to 8lb braid mainline. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by NoMoreDonuts

[slowjigger]

I tie a bimini double in the braid (at least 40 turns) and then use a double uni to the leader. It seems to be 100% as it rarely breaks at the join when busting off from snags.

Edited March 23, 2022 by slowjigger

[DerekD]

2 minutes ago, NoMoreDonuts said:

I think you might have found my problem. I was tying 4lb fluoro to 8lb braid mainline. 

That would be my most likely starting point. If you are going to continue using this set up then probably the easiest knot to get around this issue is a 3 or 4 turn surgeon's joiner knot.

[DerekD]

15 minutes ago, slowjigger said:

I tie a bimini double in the braid (at least 40 turns) and then use a double uni to the leader. It seems to be 100% as it rarely breaks at the join when busting off from snags.

Hmmmm.... Interesting view... It is a big call rating it at 100%. I'd probably say it is consistently stronger than your terminal tackle knot. Even at 85% breaking strength at the joiner versus say 70% breaking strength at the terminal tackle (I've just grabbed percentages out of the air as I don't want to think too much tonight) you would see this result consistently. I get the same result with the FG as my joiner and the uni as my terminal knot.

Edited March 23, 2022 by DerekD

[slowjigger]

14 minutes ago, DerekD said:

Hmmmm.... Interesting view... It is a big call rating it at 100%. I'd probably say it is consistently stronger than your terminal tackle knot. Even at 85% breaking strength at the joiner versus say 70% breaking strength at the terminal tackle (I've just grabbed percentages out of the air as I don't want to think too much tonight) you would see this result consistently. I get the same result with the FG as my joiner and the uni as my terminal knot.

It depends how you express it. It's a 100% (at least) compared to the weakest point - as evident by it breaking elsewhere. So for practical purposes you don't need better than that.

FG and other knots tied in single braid seem to work with heavy leaders, for light leaders I always tie a bimini double. 

 

[DerekD]

2 minutes ago, slowjigger said:

It depends how you express it. It's a 100% (at least) compared to the weakest point - as evident by it breaking elsewhere. So for practical purposes you don't need better than that.

Too much thinking now... You are messing with my head....

[slowjigger]

4 minutes ago, DerekD said:

Too much thinking now... You are messing with my head....

Yes it's gets more complicated the more I think about it as the breaking strain of the braid is an unknown factor. Often it's a lot higher than the rating, so you can't be sure if the leader or the braid is stronger unless there is a big difference in stated strength. But at the end of the day if the joining knot doesn't break in a direct pull then it's doing well.

[Isaac Ct]

I know I will get criticised for this, but I run straight 6lb mono to my lure when lure fishing, I only use swivels for bait fishing as well. I have tried the Double uni and then the FG but I figured if my knot has already held a 70+cm flattie then screw it. Be lazy and hope for the best.

[Yowie]

When I fish up river, I stick to mono and no leader (except for pillies on ganged hooks - 20 pound toughened mono leader via a swivel) and hook to line, no swivel, and therefore no extra knots other than the hook.

The reason for the tougher leader and therefore a swivel, is the teeth of tailor that fray the line near the bait. Tailor swim into a line at times when attacking a bait and the teeth just keep chomping away (have seen it happen close up) and will fray the line or bite completely through it.

The more knots, the greater the chance of knots slipping (my opinion)

As for the names of the knots I use, I have no idea of them. 🤣  I have been using them since a LONG time ago, before a lot of you were born. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Yowie

[NoMoreDonuts]

1 hour ago, DerekD said:

That would be my most likely starting point. If you are going to continue using this set up then probably the easiest knot to get around this issue is a 3 or 4 turn surgeon's joiner knot.

Thanks @DerekD. I can’t see myself changing to lighter mainline at the moment so this sounds like a good option to try out.

[NoMoreDonuts]

43 minutes ago, Isaac Ct said:

I know I will get criticised for this, but I run straight 6lb mono to my lure when lure fishing, I only use swivels for bait fishing as well. I have tried the Double uni and then the FG but I figured if my knot has already held a 70+cm flattie then screw it. Be lazy and hope for the best.

As much as I’m trying to up my knot game. The best knot is the one that gets the fish. If I can catch a 70+ lizard one day (on whatever knot) I’ll be smiling for a week.

[Green Hornet]

I tie FG's in leaders down to 3lb and as you said above, it is imperitave that when tying, the wraps are tight. Its also necessary to ensure all wraps bite well into the leader, otherwise the knot will loosen running through the guides and possibly fail. I use PE 0.6 braid and in leaders under 6lb, I find 12 sets of wraps work for me. 

Before I learnt how to tie an FG, I used a slim beauty as I found this knot slid through small rod guides better than most others. The problem with tying a slim beauty in light leaders can be getting the "figure 8" to form in such a thin line. A good way of getting around this is to set the initial stage of your knot up as I've shown in the picture below and as you slowly tighten it, you will achieve the same result as a "figure 8".

[JamoDamo]

I generally always use an fg knot, when tying it make sure to keep the wraps close as you can to each other as possible. When finishing it off I do a rizzuto finish, trick is with using super light line such as 4lb you don't want to put much pressure on when you sinch the knot. Only a quick pull with enough strength to sinch them together is sufficient. If you have any other questions just chuck me a pm I am more than happy to help out!

[Rebel]

Welcome aboard.

I use Mono, so I don't have a problem.

Uni knot all the time.

Cheers.

[NoMoreDonuts]

12 hours ago, Green Hornet said:

I tie FG's in leaders down to 3lb and as you said above, it is imperitave that when tying, the wraps are tight. Its also necessary to ensure all wraps bite well into the leader, otherwise the knot will loosen running through the guides and possibly fail. I use PE 0.6 braid and in leaders under 6lb, I find 12 sets of wraps work for me. 

 

Thanks @Green Hornet good to know that it works with leaders that light. I must have done closer to 30 wraps (probably overkill) so I might reduce that when I try again.

Edited March 24, 2022 by NoMoreDonuts