DerekD

Looked at this a few years ago. Back then from memory there were several hoops to jump through: Fishing licence =>Check Compound Bow => Check Special arrow (fibreglass) and retrieval device => Nope but had sourced it and quite affordable Restricted hunting licence => Check Advise local authorities 48 hours in advance of where you will be going => Just hit the too much hassle tipping point. Would still love to be able to do it as it combines a few of my favourite pastimes. Just not sure how the catch and release part of it goes (depending on your accuracy you could inadvertently skip over the catch part of it and go straight for release).

Hi @Niall It put a smile on my face to hear you using that retrieve to deadly effect.

Hi @Mike Sydney I was watching a YouTube channel called sandflats fishing Australia and he had a theory about why he gets so many hook ups on the belly hook. He pointed out he is fishing a prawn imitation and prawns have a spiky head and a spiky tail and by hitting the prawn/lure in the middle the fish are avoiding the pointy bits while still incapacitating their prey.

Awesome write up Niall. Can see myself re-reading this multiple times.

Hi @HenryNSW, Hopefully you have gotten over the rock fishing scare you had a while back. In my opening statement to your original post I stated I remembered a rock fishing advisory pamphlet which came with the fishing licence. Coincidentally I have just renewed and received my fishing licence with the usual extra reading material including said advisory pamphlet. I have attached it to the bottom of this post. While loading this up I decided to revisit the education aspect of your original post. The government and other bodies have been taking steps for many years to educate people about or flag the risks of rock fishing. How many people do you think will read and more importantly act on the attached pamphlet information? In this age of the internet there is a wealth of information out there for people who choose to look for it but there is even more information that is completely irrelevant to most people most of the time. The excess of information is such that most people have to block/filter out most of the data they come across each day. You don't have the time to read everything. How many contracts or instruction manuals have you actually read from start to finish. How many fishing people would do hours of research before trying a new aspect of fishing rather than take the learn as you go approach (which can been an excellent way to learn when the consequences of a stuff up are less permanent). My personality is such that if I get involved in something new I take the time to research it. I don’t have to learn everything but at least enough to start asking the right questions. I live in Sydney and neither my career or my personal interests require me to know about invasive plant species in Western Australia. In my work as a mechanical engineer I did find myself researching an invasive environmental weed in NSW for a one off project I was involved with – the information was there when I wanted/needed it. The Government by including the pamphlet with the fishing licence is specifically directing the information at those it is most applicable to. It does not encompass the information that someone with decades of experience will pick up but if it was any more complicated than it is then a lot of people would not read it. Once it has been flagged then further research will identify a number of other bodies who have put out information relevant to rock fishing. For example: One of the links included with the pamphlet: http://safefishing.com.au/ Water safety NSW: https://www.watersafety.nsw.gov.au/Pages/rock-fishing/Rock-fishing-safety-tips.aspx Surf lifesaving: https://www.surflifesaving.com.au/rock-fishing Royal lifesaving: https://www.royallifesaving.com.au/families/out-and-about/activitiesequipment/rock-fishing This one is quite good in that it also suggests people talk to locals. https://vfa.vic.gov.au/education/rock-fishing-safety I stated previously that you can’t legislate against stupidity. Maybe “ignorance” (lacking in knowledge) is a better choice of word than stupidity. There will be people who will research stuff to death once they are aware of it but there will also people who will take the approach of she’ll be right or assume that since other people are doing it so it must be safe. The authorities and relevant associations can only do so much before it is considered interference in people’s freedom. The other challenge any relevant bodies will have is that they can only generalise with this information. As others have pointed out how do you educate someone about an area which the locals have taken years or decades to work out especially when conditions change depending on tide, wind or waves on that day and even throughout the course of the day? The difference between relatively safe and unsafe could literally be 30 minutes. Some people won't listen either. While fishing on a rock platform with a mate several months ago the water level started pushing up. We were 3-4m above the water level and it wasn't an overly big swell but the waves were starting to push over the top of the platform at about knee height. A group of about four people turned up about 15 minutes before we decided to call it and we advised them to pack up and go elsewhere. They ignored the advice even after a bigger wave than we had seen previously knocked over two of them. I'll help people when they ask but I'm not going get into a fight about it or put my friend's or my life at risk if people decide to ignore our advice. We left. There is an expression in English which goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink". There is sufficient educational material out there to make a difference. Their are guides out there who specialise in rock fishing but why pay the money. It takes a lot of effort to learn the essentials and the hardest part will convincing people how critical this is. Thinking about this now one worthwhile change could be putting a number of adverts on multimedia which don't hold back about how dangerous it really is prior to the summer season. Please follow through in your passion in educating people because if you save one life you will have made a difference to that person and their loved ones. Ideally you can reach out to many people but even just a one on one with someone might be enough to make a positive change. BTW - Now that you have had a lot of input from others as to the challenges faced previously, if you were in charge of the increased signage what would you put on them? Regards. Derek

Hi Steve-O. Did you read the squiding write-up in the articles section? Might give you a few more hints. Regards, Derek

Hi Gengar, Glad to hear you are putting what I showed you to good use. I can suggest a few options which won't break the bank but please do not buy anything till we have talk about it first. Feel free to PM and we can discuss further. If you can make a time free then I can show you the gear I use and show you a few more tips to help shortcut the learning process. Regards, Derek

Before heading to the Riverina area I knew enough to have both the Murray Cod and the Trout Cod as my target species. I knew that they were a little difficult to tell apart and if you’d held a Murray cod next to a Trout Cod of similar size, on first impression I’d expect they were the same fish with just individual (rather than species) differences. The DPI put up some rather detailed signs in the areas we were fishing to indicate the differences and I thought it worth sharing.

Hi Fab1, If the tails start getting bitten off the plastics then generally tailor and then I switch to a halco twisty or similar lure with a hook on the tail end. Generally when I'm fishing off a wharf and the plastics start getting nibbled as they get in close it is usually small leather jackets (Sydney Piranha). To a degree you can get around this with some bite resistant plastics such as Z-mans but the downsides is they are often a pain to rig perfectly and they do not play well with other plastics as there seems to be a chemical reaction. Since I started fishing with plastics and lures I generally found the size/quality of the fish I was catching to be better. You usually avoid hooking up on the pickers and skip up to the predatory sized fish. Not always the case but it is one of the reasons I've stuck with it and don't see myself stopping either. Regards, Derek

Hi Gengar, I've taught a lot of people starting out in soft plastics over the years and I keep seeing the same errors. I started writing a how to but that will take a while yet as there is a lot of information too compile. First thing I think where people struggle is they go too heavy on the gear. I recommend a 2-4kg graphite rod with a length of around 7 foot or a little more with a short butt. Match it with a 1000/1500-2500 sized reel and some 4lb braid (generally will break around 10lb) such as power pro or berkley X5 or some skinny 6lb braid such as Daiwa J braid or Shimano Kairiki. The 14lb braid you are using will severely limit your casting distance. For the same lure (1/4oz) I expect to cast double and probably more distance than you are. Not that I am saying go out and get new gear straight away but if you have a lighter outfit floating around then give it a try. I chase kings/salmon on the bream gear with 3 inch minnows but use the slapstix in 6" and 9" with my 10 to 15lb lines and 5-8kg outfits. Are you anywhere near the lower north shore of Sydney as an introduction lesson will shorten your learning curve dramatically? Regards, Derek

As Floris is interested in Local Ecological Knowledge (LEK) and in particular hydrological systems, the chance to pick Neil’s brain was a golden opportunity. One of the stories Neil told us highlighted the importance of getting your data from multiple sources – even when related to the same area. While fishing, Neil met some people doing an electrolysis survey of the fish in the area. They had a device which put metal fingers in the water and would generate an electrical charge sufficiently strong enough to temporarily stun the fish after which they would float to the surface and be counted. So as not to get in each other’s way they worked slightly different sections of the river. When they caught up later they swapped stories. Neil had been doing well on the Murray Cod and pretty well nothing else. The survey team had been picking up a lot of golden perch/yellowbelly which was a real surprise to Neil as he found he rarely caught them in the area. Even stranger was that they had struggled to get any Murray Cod. If the data had been taken just from the census crew the impression would have been that the Murray Cod was almost non-existent in that section of the river.

Shrimp is one of the predominate food sources in the river so we found ourselves going “Shrimping”. Prior to our arrival Neil had laid some shrimp nets in the local waterways. Each time we stopped the boat along the river we dropped a shrimp net or two. One of the baits used in the nets was soap and it worked. Here and there we’d get several shrimp. Unfortunately no photos at this time. I kept hearing the word shrimp so frequently that I’m pretty sure I called out “Loo-tenant DAN” a few times and kept thinking of the Bubba-Gump shrimp company from the movie Forrest Gump. I also find myself wanting to pull it out of the cupboard for a re-watch. All these years I’ve been working on my plastics and lures fishing techniques and it turns out all I needed to do was get some soap and cheese. Who knew? We only caught one yabbie which was taken by a snag. It seems they were a struggle to catch for some reason. Even the specialists had to work hard to find them.

Several years ago @big Neil from the Riverina area of NSW reached out to me for help with several saltwater species. Over time we got him his first king (not legal), squid, luderick on fly. Each goal took some effort but I enjoyed every trip with him. He also kindly offered to return the favour as the iconic Murray Cod could be caught in the Murrumbidgee river near where he lived. Fast forward to 2021 and the time was right to take him up on his generous offer. I dragged a long term friend (Floris) along as he’d met Neil during earlier fishing trips and they got on well. Floris and his family have been friends of mine for decades. He loves his fishing but life got in the way and it was only in the last few years that he contacted me for fishing help and to see what had changed since his younger years. Floris is a Senior Lecturer at Sydney University in the Environmental Sciences and has an interest in Local Ecological Knowledge. This trip would give him the chance to catch another species or two on his check list, have some down time and pick Neil’s brain on the local ecosystems and the behaviour of the fish. The trip was about 7 hours, slow and uneventful. After a quick chat and break we headed out to check the shrimp nets Neil had set earlier and then the local ramp for an afternoon fish. In the past when I’ve caught up with Neil the weather has made itself annoying and this time was no exception with storm clouds hanging over our heads. The river was way up with the recent rains and the water temperature was down to 21°C so Neil was worried the fish had shut down but nothing ventured nothing gained. Neil has his launch method down to a fine art and had us on the water with minimal effort. With the river running so strongly and deep using lures was a bit of a struggle. Eventually after trying some spinner baits and deep divers they got put in the too hard basket. We picked locations where we could tie off the bank just upstream from a back eddy. Using paternoster rigs and running rigs kept our baits (a mixture of worms, shrimp and cheese on each rod to see what they were taking) near the bottom. We tried several likely locations with Neil getting more and more concerned we’d break his 100% success rate of putting visitors onto the iconic Murray cod. At one of the locations my rod buckled over and it looked like the cheese on the end of my line was going to be the bait of choice. The hit was solid but the fight was soon over with my first Murray Cod coming to the surface. Neil’s record remained unblemished and after a few quick photos the fish went back into the water. A visual estimate called it at slightly over a legal 55cm. A quick recharge of energy with a snack. Shortly after the rod Floris was using bent over. The fight was just as quick and resulted in a lovely Murray cod, legal (or a touch under). A quick photo session and release then high fives all around as the primary goal was achieved and every fish from now on was a bonus. Once again cheese and been the bait of choice. A couple more hits here and there but no hook ups. It had been a long day so we got off the water just before the storms hit and headed back for a home cooked dinner. One of Neil’s hobbies is pottery and one of mine is photography. He had been struggling to get photos to do his works justice so I gave it a go. Here are some of the results. The next morning involved a leisurely start and a drive to the next town to give a different section of the river a shot. One of my secondary goals was to catch a trout cod and this stretch of river was the best chance I had. This time the weather was gorgeous and sunny to the point we kept picking shady spots along the river to try. Again we mixed up the baits to see what was working. As the pressure was now off we had a line each in the water. Floris picked up two smaller Murray cod followed by Neil. I was getting ribbed about letting the team down. Although a little later I made up with it by hooking the largest cod of the day. Neil picked up another cod and then my rod buckled sufficiently to indicate a fish on. The fight wasn’t impressive and saw the fish skipping across the surface but when it came into the boat I took a look at the lower lip and realised it was a trout cod – second goal achieved. A few photos and back in the water. In these smaller sizes to the inexperienced eye (me in this case) the Murray Cod and Trout Cod look to be the same fish. There are several indicators, such as the bottom lip of the Murray cod is as long or longer than the top lip whereas the trout cod has an under-bite. Neil picked it instantly as he knew the other indicators to look for. We had a few more bites in the area which appeared to be trout cod from the way they hit but both were lost in the structure we were having to fish. Neil picked up another small Murray Cod and then a yellow belly/golden perch on the shrimp. We called it a day in the late afternoon as the fish seemed to have shut down and the main goals had been achieved. 10 fish in two days fishing in difficult conditions was a great result for us. Back to Neil’s for dinner and then bed. The next morning saw us driving back to Sydney. Looking back at what was written it doesn’t cover the friendly banter and discussions about fish behaviour. I couldn’t really do the few days fishing with Neil justice in a simple post but I have come back with memories which will last me a lifetime. I saw an area of NSW I’d never seen in person before. These few days were a break that both Floris and I needed and I think Neil appreciated the company after what he has been through in the last few years. Thank you for reading this far. Thank you Neil for being such a wonderful host and inviting us along to such a beautiful part of NSW. Thank you Floris for the company and doing the majority of the driving. Regards, Derek

Hi HenryNSW, Firstly, I’m impressed at your passion in pursuing this and the thoughts you have put into your post but it will take a huge amount of energy and time to get it going in the direction we would all like to see. Not to say it isn't worth it - saving one life would be a payback well beyond the energy expended. Deaths from rock fishing has been an ongoing problem which the authorities have been trying to resolve for decades. There has been a lot of research into it – in fact there was a report back in 2003 covering the years from 1992 to 2000 which broke each incident down into various categories relating to deceased information (age, gender, country of origin, etc) and incident information (conditions, postcode traveled from). Here is the link to the report. https://www.watersafety.nsw.gov.au/Documents/Publications/Reports-Historical/RockFishFatalitiesReport_Sept03.pdf I believe there used to be a pamphlet with your fishing licence warning people of the dangers of rock fishing. Furthermore from what I remember the warnings have been translated into many different languages to reach those for whom English is not a primary language. You mentioned increased signage. I occasionally fish a location near my work which has a sign advising of how many people have died there to date. The majority of people down there wear cleats and life jackets but I still see people come down there with thongs on and they are asking for trouble. Last year I had to help some seriously under-prepared people out of that location as they started getting knocked over by waves. For the record there are several ways in/out of that spot and they picked the worst considering the gear they were wearing. Also the waves were not what I would have considered dangerous if in cleats but they had no grip on the cabbage weed which grows there. I’m a little cynical in that I believe you can’t legislate against stupidity and I believe there is sufficient information already out there for those who take the time to research properly. A Korean friend of mine was interested in getting into rock fishing with his younger brother and some friends and he took safety seriously even down to the clothes, flippers, lifejacket, abseilers helmet, etc. He bought his mates down to catch up with me at one of the rock platforms and we didn’t go down. Just looked at what the water was doing, what resources such as seabreeze was saying about the swell at the time. Rock safety. Exit strategies. Etc. Even experienced rock fisherman can misjudge the conditions but they will have taken all practical steps to ensure they are not putting themselves or others at risk. You can put up all the warnings you want but if people do not take their safety as seriously as they should how can you stop that without affecting personal freedoms? What makes me really angry is that they can put other people (e.g. rescuers) in danger due to their lack of forethought and preparation. Good luck with this and please consider that this is a problem which authorities and people in the fishing industry have been trying to resolve for decades. Regards, Derek PS. Due to where I live and work I can get to various rock platforms in a reasonable time. If I decide I don't like the conditions and turn away it doesn't cost me much time. Now think about it from the perspective of those of have packed to make a whole day of it, then have a travel time of over an hour each way. They will often decide to start fishing even if the conditions look slightly unfavorable because they have taken so much effort to get there in the first place rather than walking away.

If want to have a chat to talk through little details feel free to PM me your number. Also if you get to the lower North shore of Sydney I'm happy to give you an introduction to soft plastic and similar lures lesson.

Hi Fab1, Going to try and compress 15+ years of learning and teaching people into a relatively short post (for me). I don't fish competition so I've taken it to the point where I am happy and feel confident of catching fish. I don't really go into the super finesse stuff with ultralight jigheads such as 1/24oz. I think Gulp are genius in that you have an edible, biodegradable lure in the shape of a soft plastic. I really don't like using them as they dry out if not kept in their liquid, the liquid can leak into your gear bag once opened, they are relatively easy to damage if/when a fish hits them. On a positive they will catch fish and are a good starting point. I'm also not a big fan of the trendy new kid on the block - the Z-mans. On a positive they are bite resistant. On a negative I find them a pain to rig on consistently straight as the material is so rubbery and resists going over the jig head. They also do not play well with other plastics. There seems to be a sort of chemical reaction where one will melt the other (usually the Z-man). The puddle of plastics which results does not fish well. If you told me to drop my plastics down to the minimum for my 2-4kg outfit I'd head out with: 2.5" grubs matched with a gamakatsu 211 ball head jig head in 1/8oz and size 1 or 2 hook. The short hook sits well in the grub. 3" minnows (my go to are Berkley power bait) with a TT tournament bullet head jigheads in the 1H hook (H is for heavier gauge wire) in 1/4 oz for range, 1/6 oz for a little more hang time and then rarely 1/8 oz if I want even more hang time. 4" minnow with 1/4 oz and 1/0H hook. Hold the jig head alongside the plastic and it has to look right. I'm a big fan of the TT brand and I wish I was sponsored by them but there are many other choices which will work. The reason I'm a huge fan of the bullet heads is because I've worked out a retrieve which results in a sub-surface walk the dog which turns out to be very effective on pelagics. Alternative plastics are the wriggle tails or paddle tails (like the squidgy plastics in your photo). Very effective for fish like flathead or bass as they create vibrations and movement in the water which the fish are keyed in to. The dicussion continues. Derek

Hi @Fab1, The short answer is yes you can. My first ever fish on a soft plastic was a silver trevally on a small white grub with a 2-4kg fibreglass tipped rod and mono. The fish and I were both hooked but in different contexts. As I learned more about it I gradually switched to gear more suitable to it. What you will find is that there is flex in the rod, stretch in the line and you don't have the sensitivity. Furthermore, setting the hook takes a touch more effort. It will work but once you make the switch to modern gear you will likely find yourself cringing if you ever try going back. Give it a go using the 2500 reel, light rod and say 8lb line but factor in that using the appropriate gear will make it a joy. The whip as you cast out a light lure. The little spray of mist as the moisture gets flicked off your line. The settling of the light braid on the water. The direct response of the lure to your every twitch. The feel of a bite as a fish decides it wants a plastic lure more than you do. Regards, Derek PS. What jig heads are you using. My personal opinion is that most people fish a little too light to start with and get in trouble with poor casting distance and birds nests.

Hi All, I work with a number of keen fishos with fishing connections over Australia. While we are good with our bread and butter species the occasional query comes up asking for the name of a species. Now in the past my go to Application has been a phone call or text message to @wazatherfisherman which has a really good success rate. Others are less fortunate and have to resort to a smart phone application. What application are people using for fish identification and would you recommend it? Specifically interested in Australian Species and NSW in particular. Regards, Derek

Hi Mike, That is a well thought out and comprehensive article. I took a lot of pleasure in reading it and will probably re-read it several times and refer others to it. I'm impressed at how much your fishing technique has grown since I "dumped over your gear and casting technique" and started mentoring you. I now find I suffer pangs of envy when you text me your latest catches while I am at work. Beginner you may be but I think you are well on your way to becoming an expert in your niche field. Looking forward to more sessions with you. Regards, Derek

Hi Kilp, Well written report and thank you for sharing. You did well putting all the information we went through on the day into practice leading to several luderick being landed and several more lost (you'll get them next time). It is often where I like to start people new to fishing as it is a very visual form of fishing and you can get some instant feedback when the fish are playing. It is also a lot of fun if you haven't fished for them before. Thanks for being such good company on the day and for the enthusiasm you had during the whole process. I'm confident you could now go out and successfully target them on your own based on what you learned on the day but it is more fun with company. Regards, Derek PS. We will also have to try you with the weed flies in some upcoming sessions.

Hi Pickles, Thank you for taking the time to put this together and I hope it ends up in the library as it will make a nice go to reference in the future. Regards, Derek

Congratulations FmFF. When you sent the photo to my phone I realised it was a good fish. What I didn't realise was, was how good a fish it actually was. It took me years to crack the meter mark (102cm - you are nipping at my heels with 101cm) and you have done it in an impressively short time. The sessions out with @Pickles would have helped with the learning curve but you still had to put it all together to make it work. Looking forward to our next sessions out. May have to try and get you on a mulloway before the end of Summer. Regards, Derek

Excellent report Mike. Looking forward to seeing more of them as the season progresses. "But anyway, later that weekend I spent a day with Derek who promptly dumped all over my technique and gear..." That sounds so harsh. Can we just call it "tough love" or "constructive criticism"? 😁

Hi Lungfai. We are using the 70mm Sugapens and the belly treble and rear assist hook combo is a pain as the assist hooks catch up on the trebles often enough to cut into fishing time. On the 90mm sugapens the separation distance between the two hook points is sufficient that this is not a problem. There are also sufficient commercially made lures such as the Jackson Ebi panic prawn or the Ecogear PX55F shrimp with treble and assist hooks arrangement that it is easier to buy one of them than start mucking around with the smaller sugapens. The other reason I have for leaving them as is is because some of the sandflats we are/will be fishing get visited by salmon and kings and the trebles are a bit better for hook ups - I do keep some long nosed pliers handy for careful dehooking. The trebles on a lot of my lures get changed out for singles but I have some exceptions - these sugapens being one of them. Regards, Derek

Head to the articles section in the Library of the Forum. Here is one to get you started: