Dodgy Servicing

[pjbink]

You think if you buy a new motor you should be worry free for a few years and when you go to the dealer you bought it off the items ticked in the sevice book are actually done! This has happened twice now with different dealers: the service book has ticked that the cylinder head had been retensioned and that the propeller has been removed and the shaft greased. Yet on all the bolts the paint hasn't been disturbed a bit! Now if the cylinder head hasn't been tensioned it can be catastrophic as saltwater can get into the engine. I supect that this was the case with the Tohatsu saga Bisso (I think) put up.

Edited April 20, 2007 by billfisher

[Chris 55]

Very good point Billfisher

Wonder what the expression would change to

when you ask for a refund on the labour charge

seeing they hadn't touched those items

Hang on maybe they repaint them oh yeah

to cover the spanner marks

Chris

[pjbink]

Chris 55,

I will be paying them a visit. If the motor seizes in the next few months due to water damage I will be asking for a new one free of charge!

Edited April 20, 2007 by billfisher

[Chris 55]

just make sure you advise them ASAP so it is

documented - emails are very useful to do this

as there is a date stamp

basic rules of complaining

be curteous and play a bit dumb (gives them a

feel they still have it over you)

note every thing - pics are good

get any implied warranty guarantee in writing

never be put off by the hired help - if your not

happy with how it's going go for the boss

if there is no satisfaction nice turns cold and calculating

but never loose your temper or language control

you must show them you are not to be dicked around with

by pointing out the short comings of the work done

advise them it will be in the hands of the appropriate

industry and legal bodies if there is lack of satisfaction

best of luck and kick arse

Chris

[pjbink]

Thanks Chris, that sound like good advice. Hopefully the motors fine as it is running OK (you soon find out if water has got in), but not tensioning the head certainly doesn't do it any good! I am rather annoyed though paying top dollar for a dealer service and taking the time to drop it there rather than my usual mechanic who is much closer to home. I will be interested to see what they have to say.

[Chris 55]

Yep totally agree - especially the price of labour on

repairs

Remember always keep the smile on your dial so they

can't read what you're really thinking

Chris

[chainsaw]

Hi Billfisher, (and others)

From an Automotive Engineers point of view. In a lot of cases with the modern auto engine (dont know about marine) the cylinder heads are not retensioned, special composition head gaskets are used and in some cases sealants are used on the head bolts retensioning disturbs the sealant. The correct way to retension a bolt is to loosen it then retighten it to the correct tension (in sequence).

The more "padding" that can be put into an invoice seems to justify the price.

Rod

By the way for all the critics, thats not the mast sticking out of my boat its my fishing rod.

[pjbink]

Well re-tensioning is on the warranty/ service manual so I would think it is important. Also unlike automotive engines outboards are cooled by highly corrosive seawater. I nearly had one engine destroyed by a leaking gasket. I had to get the crankshaft rebuilt due to corrosion which wasn't cheap.

[OSHISWET]

You think if you buy a new motor you should be worry free for a few years and when you go to the dealer you bought it off the items ticked in the sevice book are actually done! This has happened twice now with different dealers: the service book has ticked that the cylinder head had been retensioned and that the propeller has been removed and the shaft greased. Yet on all the bolts the paint hasn't been disturbed a bit! Now if the cylinder head hasn't been tensioned it can be catastrophic as saltwater can get into the engine. I supect that this was the case with the Tohatsu saga Bisso (I think) put up.

who did u buythe motor of ? If your not happy with the service name and shame them.Im sick of hearing this shit.,

[Chris 55]

Lumpookey

I think it's against the site's rules (Rule 3) to post that info

site rules

If you want to know I suggest you PM Billfisher

and he can advise you further if he wants to

Chris

[Flightmanager]

Lumpookey

I think it's against the site's rules (Rule 3) to post that info

site rules

If you want to know I suggest you PM Billfisher

and he can advise you further if he wants to

Chris

Chris is quite correct , even though some businesses are less than honest in their dealings , these forums are not the place to discredit them ( however well deserved!).

However , private discussions between two members is another thing entirely!!!

Ross

[bolan]

Hi Billfisher, (and others)

From an Automotive Engineers point of view. In a lot of cases with the modern auto engine (dont know about marine) the cylinder heads are not retensioned, special composition head gaskets are used and in some cases sealants are used on the head bolts retensioning disturbs the sealant. The correct way to retension a bolt is to loosen it then retighten it to the correct tension (in sequence).

The more "padding" that can be put into an invoice seems to justify the price.

Rod

By the way for all the critics, thats not the mast sticking out of my boat its my fishing rod.

Wow, is that like a stand up 250kg rod outfit or what????????

[gone_wishin]

Wow, is that like a stand up 250kg rod outfit or what????????

No... that's his breaming finesse rod, the game out fit is much bigger than that

[OSHISWET]

Lumpookey

I think it's against the site's rules (Rule 3) to post that info

site rules

If you want to know I suggest you PM Billfisher

and he can advise you further if he wants to

Chris

Thanks for the advice.Cheers

[trev1]

Have you contacted the dealer in question yet? After all they should be your first port of call, rather than a public forum. Did you consider they may have a reason NOT to tension the cylinder heads - like a service bulletin telling them not to. ( if they had left the box empty on the service sheet you would be questioning that too)

Dont forget the dealer probably sees 100-200 times the amount of these engines than you do and in a far more intimate way than just turning the key. Their experience with these engines has to be far in excess of yours, have you thought perhaps they DO know what the engine needs?

In my 20 odd years of mechanical experience, retorqing usually creates more problems than it cures, especially where corrosion is possible or present.

[pjbink]

Have you contacted the dealer in question yet? After all they should be your first port of call, rather than a public forum. Did you consider they may have a reason NOT to tension the cylinder heads - like a service bulletin telling them not to. ( if they had left the box empty on the service sheet you would be questioning that too)

I emailed them and they did not reply! I haven't named them so I don't see anything wrong with mentioning it on a 'public forum'. This has happened twice on different makes of motor and different dealers. Are you suggesting 2 sevice bulletins for 2 different makes of motor? In both cases they ticked the box - I would call this lying!

Dont forget the dealer probably sees 100-200 times the amount of these engines than you do and in a far more intimate way than just turning the key. Their experience with these engines has to be far in excess of yours, have you thought perhaps they DO know what the engine needs?

In my 20 odd years of mechanical experience, retorqing usually creates more problems than it cures, especially where corrosion is possible or present.

If thats the case then these dealers know more than the manufacturers - not likely IMHO. Is your 20 years of mechanical experience with outboard motors?

Edited May 14, 2007 by billfisher

[pjbink]

We are not supposed to put links but here is a lists of things that should be done on a outboard motor:

Repairs and Service Work

With over 2000 regular service customers XXXXX has fully trained mechanics who can work on any outboard engine (post 1986). XXXXX has mooring facilities that enable customers to bring their boat up by water as well as by road.

How often should I have my outboard serviced?

You should always refer to your manufacturers handbook for recommended service periods. But, as a general rule, your outboard will need servicing as follows:

1st service:- after a running time of 10 hours

Every 100hrs or annually:- you should have your engine serviced at least once a year to prolong its life and ensure it is running at optimum efficiency.

XXXXX also carries out work for trade customers, sailing schools, clubs and societies and are happy to offer advice to their customers.

See the chart below for a typical manufacturer's service guide which would be carried out by XXXXX on an annual service.

Items to be Checked

Strip and check water pump.

Change gear oil - check for water ingress through seals.

Spark plugs - clean/replace as required.

Check flywheel nut torque/torque cylinder head.

Recoil starter - check condition of rope/lube as required.

Fuel filter - strip and clean.

Check operation of tilt mechanism.

Check adjustment of gear/throttle cables and lubricate all linkages as required.

Lubricate propeller shaft.

Bleed autolube pump.

Ignition timing - check/adjust linkages as required.

Carburettor pilot screws check/adjust.

Check operation of on/off neutral interlock switches etc.

During test run of engine check for smooth operation of all controls and for correct starting both hot and cold. Check for correct idle speed when hot and for smooth pick up from idle. Where possible check to ensure engine achieves maximum RPM.

Lubricate pivot shaft/all linkages/clamp screws etc.

Check condition of anode/trim tab, replace if required.

Drain down carburettors.

Change oil, filters, and check valves on 4 strokes.

Clean externally and stamp customer's warranty logbook.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Flightmanager

[Flightmanager]

As long as you dont name the dealer in question , and you remain civil in your replies to other members , we are most interested in how this saga progresses , as many of us have new engines ( myself included ) , it can be a great service to us to learn of some of these practices.

I tend to agree that some service depts may well know a bit more than the manufacturers , as they are " at the coal face " , and see the different problems which present themselves . Im sure not all of this knowledge makes its way back to the manufacturers.

A mate of mine had a similar problem with a high performance car , he took it in for its service , and part of that service was a new air filter and spark plugs (8 Platinum plugs @ $26 each). Being the trusting soul that he isnt , he marked each plug , the oil filter , air filter etc.

Upon being presented with a bill in excess of $1000 , he immediately opened the bonnet , and removed HIS ORIGINAL FILTER. He then basically dragged the Service Manager ( from a very large and well known dealership) out to his car , showed him the bill , listing the new parts allegedly supplied , and showed him the marked filter. He then demanded that the plugs be removed in the Managers presence , and guess what , surprise surprise , the OLD PLUGS had not been replaced.

The manager then went into damage recovery mode , blamed all and sundry , and offered free servicing ( labour) on the vehicle for as long as my mate owned it. This was in reaction to my mates threat to go to the media with the story.

I guess the moral of the story is trust no one , check to make sure that the work has been done , and if it hasnt , and you have been charged for it complain. Loud and Long!!!

Any reputable dealer will try to rectify the situation. If they dont , go elsewhere.

Ross

[netic]

Smart mate there Flightmanager.............would of loved to of been there when the plugs were pulled off

[Flightmanager]

So would I , Oz !!

He gets rather passionate when he re-tells the story!!

Ross

[kw367]

I guess the moral of the story is trust no one , check to make sure that the work has been done , and if it hasnt , and you have been charged for it complain. Loud and Long!!!

Any reputable dealer will try to rectify the situation. If they dont , go elsewhere.

Ross

I think any reputable dealer would either do the work in the first place OR not charge for it. If neither was the case, I'd be complaining long and loud until they rectified the situation. THEN I'd go elsewhere next time.

[justinp]

As a mechanic with 15yrs experience it is very unusual to have to retorque any gaskets in the motor vehicle trade and I am unaware if this applies to the marine industry, advancements in gasket technology is what I put this down too, advancement in coolant also should be considered and most headgaskets come now days with heat activated sealants within, having said this their may be some marine engines that still need a retorque at specific hours. In the motor trade you will find that service books are mass produced for a range of cars and thay are not always model specific, its just not cost effective for them to do it that way, so you may have conflicting information in them, for example some service books still have adjust tappets still written in them even when the model of car has hydraulic lifters. Im sure that this will also apply in the marine industry, their may be a model of outboard that indeed does need retorque and it just simplly does not apply in your case, check your invoice if it indeed says that it has been done, I would then take it up with the dealer, cheers Justin.

[pjbink]

As a mechanic with 15yrs experience it is very unusual to have to retorque any gaskets in the motor vehicle trade and I am unaware if this applies to the marine industry, advancements in gasket technology is what I put this down too, advancement in coolant also should be considered and most headgaskets come now days with heat activated sealants within, having said this their may be some marine engines that still need a retorque at specific hours. In the motor trade you will find that service books are mass produced for a range of cars and thay are not always model specific, its just not cost effective for them to do it that way, so you may have conflicting information in them, for example some service books still have adjust tappets still written in them even when the model of car has hydraulic lifters. Im sure that this will also apply in the marine industry, their may be a model of outboard that indeed does need retorque and it just simplly does not apply in your case, check your invoice if it indeed says that it has been done, I would then take it up with the dealer, cheers Justin.

If you look back justinp I said in both instances the box for re-torque was ticked. In the first case with the Tohatsu all the carby adjustments were found to be way out at the 10 hour service. It looks like the dealer was just selling them out of the box and not doing the specified pre-delivery service. This dealer had a lot of warranty claims for these motors - which is most unusual for this brand. He is no longer a Tohatsu dealer, and will bad mouth the brand to anyone who will listen. In the second case it doesn't look like the propeller was taken off and the shaft greased either!

Now cars are very different to marine engines and the design of carby two strokes haven't changed much from year to year. Another Tohatsu dealer told me that re-torquing is required, as does the article I put up regarding sevincing requirements.

Edited May 20, 2007 by billfisher