Finding it hard to see why lighter trace works

[nutsaboutfishing]

People always say with regards to trace, fish as light as you can. But the difference in diameters in different weights make it hard for me to see how it makes much of a difference. I like to use Vanish Fluorocarbon line as my leader. For example on the Berkley website the diameters of 6lb and 10lb are .22mm and .27mm which is a difference (if my maths is correct) of 5 one hundreths of a mm,  which is 1/20 of a mm for a 66% heavier line.

I find it hard to imagine a fish can tell the difference of 1/20 of a mm between leaders especially as fluoro is supposed to be just about invisible underwater and also the line is always moving in the water not just sitting there for the fish to compare.

Am I missing something?? Or is my maths wrong?

Edited October 23, 2018 by nutsaboutfishing

[DerekD]

Hi NutsAboutFishing,

At a brief glance the maths looks pretty good.

One thing I have noticed is that a thicker leader can affect the movement of a lure. Someone I've worked with on soft plastics before was struggling with a retrieve I was demonstrating. The rod was the same as mine and when I tried my walk the dog technique it was pretty lifeless. I switched the lure on to my rod and it worked properly. Looking further at his rig I think his leader was twice the rating (say 20lb) to my 10lb leader.

In the 6 to 10lb range of the Nitlon fluorocarbon I normally use on the light gear I am of the opinion most of the fish don't care. Bream might be an exception but I don't fish tournament for them.

Regards.

Derek

[Fab1]

19 minutes ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

People always say with regards to trace, fish as light as you can. But the difference in diameters in different weights make it hard for me to see how it makes much of a difference. I like to use Vanish Fluorocarbon line as my leader. For example on the Berkley website the diameters of 6lb and 10lb are .22mm and .27mm which is a difference (if my maths is correct) of 5 one hundreths of a mm,  which is 1/20 of a mm for a 66% heavier line.

I find it hard to imagine a fish can tell the difference of 1/20 of a mm between leaders especially as fluoro is supposed to be just about invisible underwater and also the line is always moving in the water not just sitting there for the fish to compare.

Am I missing something?? Or is my maths wrong?

I'll fix your dilema here and now.Come fishing with me and it won't matter what you use as you'll be guaranteed to catch nothing. ?

Personally if i was going to worry about weather a line was 1/20th of a mm bigger or smaller i would give the game away.I doubt it would even make much difference in a lures action if any.

Looking forward to hearing other peoples technical reasons to your question.

[savit]

I have a theory that a fish feels (with lateral line)  a leader more than it sees, so leader clarity is not enough for lures . A thicker leader has more resistance (and disturbance) in the water during the lure retrieve.

I would not rely fully on manufacturer line diameter or breaking strain ratings . There was a very good website with actual thickness and breaking strain testing  - Paulus Just Fishing. Hope it will be online some time later. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20160312183113/http://paulusjustfishing.com/4linetestingplastic.htm

[DerekD]

34 minutes ago, savit said:

I have a theory that a fish feels (with lateral line)  a leader more than it sees, so leader clarity is not enough for lures . A thicker leader has more resistance (and disturbance) in the water during the lure retrieve.

Hi Andrew,

That really is lateral thinking (in more ways than one).

Never thought about it from that perspective before.

Regards,

Derek

[kingfishbig]

2 hours ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

People always say with regards to trace, fish as light as you can. But the difference in diameters in different weights make it hard for me to see how it makes much of a difference. I like to use Vanish Fluorocarbon line as my leader. For example on the Berkley website the diameters of 6lb and 10lb are .22mm and .27mm which is a difference (if my maths is correct) of 5 one hundreths of a mm,  which is 1/20 of a mm for a 66% heavier line.

I find it hard to imagine a fish can tell the difference of 1/20 of a mm between leaders especially as fluoro is supposed to be just about invisible underwater and also the line is always moving in the water not just sitting there for the fish to compare.

Am I missing something?? Or is my maths wrong?

Well you have just picked as small difference in breaking strain. If you compared 6lb leader to 20lb you would be looking at twice the diameter and you probably see a drop in catches if you were after bream or trout for instance. But on the other hand there will be a big difference in abrasion resistance and you might need every bit of if you hook a large flathead or jewfish.

[nutsaboutfishing]

3 hours ago, Fab1 said:

I'll fix your dilema here and now.Come fishing with me and it won't matter what you use as you'll be guaranteed to catch nothing. ?

Personally if i was going to worry about weather a line was 1/20th of a mm bigger or smaller i would give the game away.I doubt it would even make much difference in a lures action if any.

Looking forward to hearing other peoples technical reasons to your question.

I agree, so if the 1/20th make no real difference why would would you ever use an 6lb leader instead of a 10lb?

[nutsaboutfishing]

47 minutes ago, kingfishbig said:

Well you have just picked as small difference in breaking strain. If you compared 6lb leader to 20lb you would be looking at twice the diameter and you probably see a drop in catches if you were after bream or trout for instance. But on the other hand there will be a big difference in abrasion resistance and you might need every bit of if you hook a large flathead or jewfish.

Sorry forgot to mention was thinking about targeting bream. And when you listen to TV shows or read about targeting bream they often seem to say going lighter whether 2 or  4lb (or more)  lighter makes  all difference.

cheers

Richard

[Fab1]

12 minutes ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

I agree, so if the 1/20th make no real difference why would would you ever use an 6lb leader instead of a 10lb?

I,d pick the heavier leader for more pulling power,abrasion/teeth resistance if necessary.I wouldn't be concerned if a fish sees it or not.Remember before fancy gear and fishing lines plenty of fish were caught.

[nutsaboutfishing]

2 hours ago, savit said:

I have a theory that a fish feels (with lateral line)  a leader more than it sees, so leader clarity is not enough for lures . A thicker leader has more resistance (and disturbance) in the water during the lure retrieve.

I would not rely fully on manufacturer line diameter or breaking strain ratings . There was a very good website with actual thickness and breaking strain testing  - Paulus Just Fishing. Hope it will be online some time later. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20160312183113/http://paulusjustfishing.com/4linetestingplastic.htm

Hey Savit,

Thanks for the reply

Yes perhaps you're right, but in my example the fishing still has to be able to feel a 1/20mm difference in water disturbance.

cheers

Richard

[Scratchie]

My theory on this is that your trying to make the lure as natural as possible! The jig head you are using is just as important if not more so than your leader. 

With regards to the diameter of the leader, this combined with the jig will have a certain resistance in the water depending on tide and current. Whilst only a small change in size it will still have an impact on the presentation of the lure. 

Just my theory but it works for me! 

Cheers scratchie!!! 

 

[Fab1]

2 minutes ago, Fab1 said:

I,d pick the heavier leader for more pulling power,abrasion/teeth resistance if necessary.I wouldn't be concerned if a fish sees it or not.Remember before fancy gear and fishing lines plenty of fish were caught.

I,d like to know if it's been proven on a particular day if using a heavier or lighter line really makes a difference. I suspect that if you went on a given day and used 10lb line and could duplicate the exact same day and used 12lb the same fish would of been caught.

I may be wrong.

[nutsaboutfishing]

3 minutes ago, Fab1 said:

I,d pick the heavier leader for more pulling power,abrasion/teeth resistance if necessary.I wouldn't be concerned if a fish sees it or not.Remember before fancy gear and fishing lines plenty of fish were caught.

I totally agree. But the experts still often say go lighter.

[nutsaboutfishing]

4 minutes ago, Fab1 said:

I,d like to know if it's been proven on a particular day if using a heavier or lighter line really makes a difference. I suspect that if you went on a given day and used 10lb line and could duplicate the exact same day and used 12lb the same fish would of been caught.

I may be wrong.

What got me thinking I was watching Fishing Edge and Lee said he go  lighter leader if the fish aren't biting and he reckons it helps. But then after he changes leader I would assume he's fishing a new area so what's to say it's not the location change and not the leader?

 

 

[nutsaboutfishing]

3 hours ago, Fab1 said:

I'll fix your dilema here and now.Come fishing with me and it won't matter what you use as you'll be guaranteed to catch nothing. ?

Personally if i was going to worry about weather a line was 1/20th of a mm bigger or smaller i would give the game away.I doubt it would even make much difference in a lures action if any.

Looking forward to hearing other peoples technical reasons to your question.

I think I'm in your boat. I can't test the theory as my catch rates are so erratic. I might catch 3 on 10lb then next day none on 6lb, then none on 10lb and 3 on 6lb.

 

[nutsaboutfishing]

13 minutes ago, Scratchie said:

Just my theory but it works for me! 

Boy does it ever!!

cheers

richard

[kingfishbig]

38 minutes ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

Sorry forgot to mention was thinking about targeting bream. And when you listen to TV shows or read about targeting bream they often seem to say going lighter whether 2 or  4lb (or more)  lighter makes  all difference.

cheers

Richard

On that topic I err on the heavier side for bream, ie 9lb leader (maxima ultra green). It doesn't seem to put the bream off and I often hook flathead and jewies on the bream lures. I got a 84 cm jewie recently that way.

[nutsaboutfishing]

13 minutes ago, kingfishbig said:

On that topic I err on the heavier side for bream, ie 9lb leader (maxima ultra green). It doesn't seem to put the bream off and I often hook flathead and jewies on the bream lures. I got a 84 cm jewie recently that way.

Yes, that's my thinking exactly. So why do the experts say go lighter for bream. Incidently other people have heard this said (go light for bream) haven't they?? 

[kingfishbig]

12 minutes ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

Yes, that's my thinking exactly. So why do the experts say go lighter for bream. Incidently other people have heard this said (go light for bream) haven't they?? 

Sometimes they are fishing bream tournaments and they after any edge over the other competitors. I'd rather fish a bit heavier in the leader for situations like the 84 cm jewie that took my bream lure. It will handle quite large flatties too if you don't let them thrash around on the surface.

[GoingFishing]

I think kingfishbig has summed up the essence of the answer to the question...... your comparing lines with a difference of only 4 pounds. 6 vs 10lb.

Ive had inexperienced friends come aboard to fish for flathead and snapper and bring a 9000 size reel spooled with 80 pound line. I think the "fish as light as you can" rule applies in the context of say, dont fish for bream with 40lb trace. The less the gap between line ratings the less this rule can be "applied".

Another thought that hasnt been mentioned yet is the comparative difference between cheap and better brands, your comparison is only 4lb and from the same brand. Iv seen cheap 20lb mono on sale that had almost 50% or more increase in diameter from the same line rating of the better brands, so in some way i think that has a part to play too.

 

[Yowie]

Looking at it from my point of view, I fish only mono, and usually don't use any trace. Just straight to the hook, line strength depending on what and where I am fishing. 6 pound with nippers, 12 or 15 pound handline in the deeper water with fish or squid strips.

I use 20 pound clear, high abrasion resistance mono with ganged hooks while using pillies, it gives some resistance to abrasion, however, the teeth of tailor will cut it through anyway.

If you are fishing for bream in rocky areas, using light traces, the bream will quite often zero in under a rock.

Also remember, it you are using 10 pound line, mono or braid, and you use say 4 pound trace, your line strength is down to 4 pound, not 10 pound. That reduces what pressure you can apply in difficult situations, such as rocky areas.

[Nolongeramember]

4 hours ago, nutsaboutfishing said:

I agree, so if the 1/20th make no real difference why would would you ever use an 6lb leader instead of a 10lb?

It does make a difference because there is a difference. You may very well catch the same fish on the heavier line sometimes, but it’s about the probability of catching a fish. It’s more probable that a fish will take a lighter line over a heavier one. If the difference is minute then the probability difference is minute. In the long run it adds up just like all odds do  

So if you want the best possible chance then you use the thinnest line. It’s a classic fishermen’s decision. 

[dirvin21]

It's all about confidence if  the lighter leader makes you think you'll catch more fish then you probably will although leader needs to be matched not only to the target species but also the surrounding terrain

 

[savit]

58 minutes ago, dirvin21 said:

It's all about confidence if  the lighter leader makes you think you'll catch more fish then you probably will although leader needs to be matched not only to the target species but also the surrounding terrain

 

I guess it works the other way around re confidence for me -  I always try  "match" the leader rating  to the cost of the lure first? 

[kingfishbig]

1 hour ago, savit said:

I guess it works the other way around re confidence for me -  I always try  "match" the leader rating  to the cost of the lure first? 

Yes with 4 lb braid (it breaks at more than that), and a 9 lb leader I often get the lure back on a direct pull. The thin wire of the jig head will bend a bit and let go of the snag. Plus as I said I don't like losing a big fish so another reason to go a bit heavier.