Road rules - a Fishraider brain trust clarification

[DerekD]

Hi all,

Just put my car into the smash repairers today for a love tap that happened back in early November (seems they are pretty busy). I almost had an accident yesterday which would have resulted in far more serious repairs.

This is the incident:

I'd like to get other people's thoughts about a road rule which is not clear in the Transport of NSW website. Probably because working out who as at fault involves looking at one or two other rules.

I know that if two cars are coming from opposite directions on a single lane road intersection and turn into the same road the car turning right has to give way to the car turning left into that same street. Been a clear rule since I got my licence several decades ago.

What I don't know is what happens if the car turning left comes from a single lane must turn left road into a 3 lane marked road without turning guidance lines and decides to take a racing line and swing across several lanes in the one movement. Again from my understanding of the rules each lane change should be done individually and use the indicators each time.

If the car had hit me and you were the insurance assessor who do you think would have been at fault. I've put the information into the attached word document to try and make it visually clearer.

Left turn right of way.docx

I'm trying to get clarification from Transport for NSW. This is the second time it has happened recently and the other time the person coming from the other side was rather angry with me. I'm of the opinion they should have turned left into the closest or even middle lane but not straight across into the third lane.

Regards,

Derek

[Plethora]

The other car is at fault - for for coming into the middle lane and not giving way to his/her right

[dunc333]

i reckon if there is no turnlng lane white lines on the car approaching you he can turn left into any lane he wants to .not that i agree with that ,maybe go down to your local highway partol station i reckon they can give you the answer

[DerekD]

Then there is this driving school which says you can turn into any lane you want to but I've seen driving schools get rules wrong before....

 

https://rightwaydriving.com.au/driving-tips-rightway/Road-Rules-Turning-refresher

[JustJames]

The car turning right has to give way to traffic coming through the intersection.

 

If there is a right turn up ahead for the car that's just joined the three lane, moving across to the right would be entirely natural and normal.

 

The car turning right should wait until it is safe to proceed, which means waiting to see what the car turning left is going to do.

 

My 0.05...and it looks like there are going to be many different answers to this question. 

[XD351]

The car turning left has right of way and can turn into any lane it wants . The car turning right can turn into any lane it wants also ( provided there aren’t any guidance lines - these are usually present when there are more than one right turn lane ) but must give way to any car turning left or going across the intersection. Chuck in a pedestrian crossing the road at the same time and these types of intersection are absolute chaos!

[DerekD]

Some additional information. This is from the NSW road rules when turning left into another street. https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-safety-and-rules/stopping-giving-way-turning/indicating-and-turning

Specifically:

The car coming from the other side did not keep to the left side of the road they were turning in to. Once they are there we then refer to the rule regarding lane changes at which point we are both on the same road and that person is required to give way to me and that would be my argument. From the NSW rules:

I've not found the rule yet about multiple lane changes but the following describes the issue nicely (this is also not from NSW rules):

Realistically though, any time there's traffic, changing multiple lanes without pausing at each step to make sure the next lane is clear is likely an unsafe maneuver. Since safety is the threshold, it would be a violation, even if the law doesn't spell out that multiple lane changes are prohibited.

Hi @Snapped Hook I was aware of the car behind the truck which is why I eased off at the lights - to give time for the truck to clear. We give rooms for the trucks to swing wide and then move into the centre (next to dividing line) lane but the cars shouldn't be moving straight across into the far lane as per the rule about turning onto the left side of the new road. What caught me by surprise was that she kept swinging across at speed even though I got there first but at a slower speed. I've been using this intersection for years but realised the rules are unclear on this scenario. Furthermore, on the trip home several streets away I hit the same situation but in this case I'd be in the other cars position.

Something to ponder. As I said I'm writing to the transport for NSW for clarification but thought it was an interesting topic for discussion as I believe it is not clear and should be something added to their documentation.

Regards,

Derek

Edited February 7, 2023 by DerekD

[DerekD]

Hi @Snapped Hook

Thanks for that. The car shown turning left is shown as only being allowed to turn into the two left lanes and not the third as the car in the video did. Based on that I believe I'm still in the right in the event of an accident (yes avoid at all costs) as the next lane change by the other driver was the illegal one as it was not safe to do so.

I've still got a rule book from 1990 (after I did my licence) so I cross reference when checking what rules have changed. Got to get my hands on the new book. I try and refresh my knowledge whenever they make rule change announcements.

Regards,

Derek

[noelm]

16 hours ago, Plethora said:

The other car is at fault - for for coming into the middle lane and not giving way to his/her right

 both cars have each other on their "right" side, give way to the right has nothing to do with it, the car turning right gives way, should the car turning left have stayed in the left lane? Maybe/probably, but the fact remains, turning right gives way, and there is no dedicated marked turning lanes.

[DerekD]

1 hour ago, noelm said:

 both cars have each other on their "right" side, give way to the right has nothing to do with it, the car turning right gives way, should the car turning left have stayed in the left lane? Maybe/probably, but the fact remains, turning right gives way, and there is no dedicated marked turning lanes.

Hmmmm.... but when changing lanes you have to indicate and give sufficient time to make the change safely. The rules are very clear that they have to turn into the left hand lane(s) when turning into a new street unless directed by guidance lines. The fact it is a 3 lane road complicates the original guideline as there is a secondary rule which comes into play.

[noelm]

Yep, I agree about "changing lanes" that's why I said "maybe/probably" but....the fact remains, turning right gives way, what happens after is another "incident" and possibly both drivers might get an infringement in the scenario above?

[XD351]

It all comes down to this rule . As I said the vehicle turning right has to give way to any oncoming vehicle or vehicle turning left regardless  of what lane that car turns into . If you think of the vehicle turning left as being the same as a vehicle turning into a one way street  it can use any lane and the vehicle turning right is also turning into a one way street it can also use any lane . It is correct that the vehicle turning left should turn into the lane to the left if safe to do so ( no parked cars etc) and the same applies for the vehicle turning right but this as far as I’m aware is not a strict road rule .Two things I have learned in the 38yrs I have had a licence ( last 15 of those as a professional driver) is that if in doubt give way and never assume that the driver of another vehicle knows the road rules or obeys them . I have lost count of the amount of times that these two things have saved my bacon .

[zmk1962]

I agree with @XD351's post as being the basic rule for give way. 

However, I believe @DerekD completed the turn correctly and according to the rules - " you must turn as soon as it is safe to do so"... if you look at the video closely, Derek was almost through the intersection before the car turning left had arrived at the intersection ... and the screen shot below shows Derek was already in the most RH lane and past the median strip/ traffic light ... when the left turn driver cut into his lane.

In addition NSW road rules state when Turning Left:

Note: KEEP TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE ROAD YOU'RE TURNING INTO !!!!!  Clearly the left turn driver did not do that.

Here's the link:  https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/roads-safety-and-rules/stopping-giving-way-turning/indicating-and-turning

Cheers Zoran