The Perfect Combination

[DrRaymondSnapper]

I realise that this topic has probably been done-to-death by now but I was curious as to the opinion of fellow Fishraiders.. There is a confusing amount of information available about various fishing topics , a lot of it is contradictory.  It is hard to judge how new gear will perform and just going by available printed data can be misleading I was interested in real-world information from experienced anglers so Fishraider is the obvious place to go. Consider this situation . I am walking along a sandy beach / estuary like Lake Macquarie. I am casting vibes and soft plastics out around weed beds and onto shallow sand flats. into clear tidal water .  The target species is flathead for a feed.  mmm flathead   There could potentially be large fish around up to 80cm. If price was not a limiting factor then what gear should I be using ?  A ,,,,,,,,reel attached to a .......rod and spooled with .........line throwing ....... vibes and soft plastics. I would be interested in your opinion on a commonly encountered situation.

[noelm]

Thousands of Flathead caught on department store “combo outfits” just a decent reel with adequate line and a moderate priced rod will catch just as many as a thousand dollar outfit, but, the more expensive gear is much nicer to use….the Flathead don’t know if you’re using a handline!

[XD351]

2 hours ago, DrRaymondSnapper said:

I realise that this topic has probably been done-to-death by now but I was curious as to the opinion of fellow Fishraiders.. There is a confusing amount of information available about various fishing topics , a lot of it is contradictory.  It is hard to judge how new gear will perform and just going by available printed data can be misleading I was interested in real-world information from experienced anglers so Fishraider is the obvious place to go. Consider this situation . I am walking along a sandy beach / estuary like Lake Macquarie. I am casting vibes and soft plastics out around weed beds and onto shallow sand flats. into clear tidal water .  The target species is flathead for a feed.  mmm flathead   There could potentially be large fish around up to 80cm. If price was not a limiting factor then what gear should I be using ?  A 2000-2500 SIZE THREADLINE,,,,,,,,reel attached to A 7-9FT 2-4KG......rod and spooled with 8lb BRAID........line THROWING LURES LIKE ....... vibes and soft plastics. I would be interested in your opinion on a commonly encountered situation.

I have edited the above quote to save on typing .

Lure size/ weight / colour or type are something that has to be assessed for each location and situation . Reel size is to balance the rod - I prefer a tiny bit butt heavy , some like the longer rod for extra distance and the rod should be selected so it suits the lure weight range being used - for most flathead fishing in the scenario you described most 2-4 kg rods will work ( my daiwa hyper is 2-6kg but I feel this is over rated and to me feels more like 2-4kg and rated for 4-14gm lures ) probably a bit heavy for 4gm and a bit light for 14gm but it has done it with no problems .

Brand is irrelevant as is cost - even cheap gear isn’t too bad today but if you want to fork out 3k for an outfit that’s your business and I say go for it -one area this is reversed is fly fishing - cheap rods are not worth buying ! I feel the two things you should look at buying decent quality is the braid and the leader material -cheap braid can be a nightmare and cheap leader or fluoro will let you down when you need it .

What I consider the perfect combo for me will differ to what someone else like Derek or Mike ( little flattie)would consider perfect for them - trick is to work out what suits you and your style of fishing -the specs I have mentioned will get you in the window but you will have to tune it to your liking .

 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by XD351

[noelm]

Strangely enough, my “go to” spinning outfit is an old as the hills “Bullwhip” that has a funny shaped blank, coupled to an equally as old “Shimano Aerocast” reel. I use it all the time for Flathead around the lake. Got lots of other gear, but for some reason I just always grab that outfit, even spooled with mono.

[DerekD]

6 hours ago, XD351 said:

What I consider the perfect combo for me will differ to what someone else like Derek or Mike ( little flattie)would consider perfect for them - trick is to work out what suits you and your style of fishing -the specs I have mentioned will get you in the window but you will have to tune it to your liking .

 

Wow I rated a mention. Thank you @XD351

[DerekD]

Hi @DrRaymondSnapper

Interesting question but we need to drill down a bit further on the details. Where I am going to be heading is we want you to forget the money aspect at this stage but get the right gear for the job. I'm better off buying a small hatchback for the 364 days a year I am driving in the city than a huge 4x4 RAM truck just for the half afternoon I might head off road.

Firstly, what are you actually trying to do? Catch decent flathead and specifically for a feed. With the slot size rules it means the size range of our target species is actually in the 36 to 70cm band. Anything over will have to go back (and they will be relatively rare anyway).

What are our assumptions:

• They are an ambush predator waiting for food to come to them. Conclusion = we need to cover a lot of ground.
• They are not overly picky. A live bait, a soft plastic, a vibe, a hardbody all have a decent chance of hooking a flathead.
• The area is or isn't snaggy. If snaggy (e.g. weedbeds) then we might have to go up a line class or two to get our lures back. If not snaggy then we can go lighter and get the benefit of extra casting distance.
• Even the big ones can tire out relatively quickly if played well. We shouldn't be spending 3 hours to land a one meter flathead. It means mainline strength is not critical and we can go lighter if we let the drag do its work.
• They have raspy teeth. While they won't cut the line like a tailor they can rub the line. Maybe it is worth going slightly heavier on the leader if it doesn't affect the lure. If they are lip hooked then the leader doesn't come into the equation.

NOTE: as @XD351 pointed out it is good to match the outfit to the weight of the lures you prefer using. We can make a recommendation but if you prefer to fish much heavier or much lighter than our suggested outfit is rated for then the advice won't help you.

My biggest flathead (about 75cm) for years was on a bream rod, 4lb leader and a 2 inch pink grub. Recently I picked up a 73cm on an ecogear and super thin PE 0.5 line with 8lb leader. That 2-4kg outfit was set up to get the maximum distance I could on light lures for sandflats fishing.

At the other end of the spectrum I went back to the same lagoon to try a 50gram glide bait on a 9 foot rod with 20lb braid. That lure didn't get half the distance what I could do on my light outfit. The glide bait was beautifully designed and looked amazing in the water. I can see how it would catch big flathead but I'd need water access to get the most out of it. Went back to my 2-4kg outfit for the rest of the afternoon.

Currently my go to set up for this sort of fishing and topwater too is. Crucis Elite 7 foot 8 inches (4 piece) rod with short butt to suit my fishing style, match it with a 1000 reel (I've got a Stradic and a Nasci as they both have the wind in handle), I went all the way with Sitlon colour change braid in 0.6 PE (8lb). Whole outfit (Nasci) including a reel bag came to $350. I blame @Little_Flatty for putting me on that rod. By getting colour changing braid I learn what distances I can get out of each lure and can see what differences minor changes to my casting technique make to the distances I can achieve.

Edited October 31, 2023 by DerekD

[XD351]

13 hours ago, DerekD said:

Wow I rated a mention. Thank you @XD351

My pleasure Derek!

[faker]

I catch flathead regularly on 7 foot rods from 2-6 kg to 2-4 kg range. They are not hard to catch with decent braid. In all honesty a $100 combo from a tackle store will do

[BaitDropper]

Well, this is always a great topic to discuss.

As said above, a $100 set up will still catch the same as the $ 700 set up.

Marketing in my opinion, and those with spare cash, will always drive the need to get the latest rod and reel.

My other fishing passion, is rebuilding old/vintage reels, Yes, I have a splattering of relatively newer versions and I do admit, there way smoother to fish with, BUT, nothing is better than pulling out a Modded up 50 year old reel and catching the same fish that a $1000 set up does 😁..

I also have a few cheapo set ups, I tend to give them to the odd novice I take out ( there non the wiser )..  But in all honesty, apart from serious trolling, all of my go to rod and reel combo's, are modified 50 year old plus set ups.

I figured, why give in to the marketing promotional campaigns, build something yourself, sure, all the stainless internals still have to be purchased, but there mainly produced by old time enthusiasts, not the large companies.  I will admit, it's the modern rod performance that sway's me over every now and then, but for reels, nope, I'm happy to fish with something I've built, maybe a bit clunkier, not quite as smooth, but Jeez it puts a smile on my face landing a fish, and in all honesty, fair p$sses some of the guys I fish with, with there stella's and fancy stuff.    

I've still got 2 barely fished, Shimano Fj's 5000 and a 15000 and 10000 Saragosa, which do come out with me, but not first choice combo's I reach for..

[kantong]

hey BaitDropper going along with your scenario I'd would imagine myself holding a 2-5kg, ~7ft rod with a 2500 sized reel with 8-10lb braid. I would want something that could cast a bit of distance and that be light enough to cast all day. 

With that said, I have 17 year old Shimano outfit (T-curve 1-3kg with a 2500c Symetre) that feels great in the hand and just feels like an extension to my arm. I also have a newer Daiwa outfit(TD Black 2-4kg with a 3000 Freams) which is lighter and stiffer and it got more 'feel' in the hand. Some of the technology has improved over the years and it's definitely targeting an improved fishing experience (no guarantees that you will catch fish!) Both of my outfits give me joy everytime, but not always fish 😅

Like most things, it's a personal choice and IMHO you have to 'fall in love' your equipment and it's got to give you a buzz when you use it. The process of researching and choosing a combo is almost just as exciting and addictive as fishing itself. Good luck and can't wait to see what you end up with.

[BaitDropper]

34 minutes ago, kantong said:

hey BaitDropper going along with your scenario I'd would imagine myself holding a 2-5kg, ~7ft rod with a 2500 sized reel with 8-10lb braid. I would want something that could cast a bit of distance and that be light enough to cast all day. 

With that said, I have 17 year old Shimano outfit (T-curve 1-3kg with a 2500c Symetre) that feels great in the hand and just feels like an extension to my arm. I also have a newer Daiwa outfit(TD Black 2-4kg with a 3000 Freams) which is lighter and stiffer and it got more 'feel' in the hand. Some of the technology has improved over the years and it's definitely targeting an improved fishing experience (no guarantees that you will catch fish!) Both of my outfits give me joy everytime, but not always fish 😅

Like most things, it's a personal choice and IMHO you have to 'fall in love' your equipment and it's got to give you a buzz when you use it. The process of researching and choosing a combo is almost just as exciting and addictive as fishing itself. Good luck and can't wait to see what you end up with.

 

Yep, exactly, its all about what you are comfortable with, when the combo achieves what you want it to do, at the cheapest/best price that suits your pocket.  I'm currently tricking up an old Penn Squidder, of all things !!   First made in 1939 and they never really changed at all over there journey, in fact they were one of Penns most successful models.  They are a bit hard to get used to, in regard to casting with, but Jeez, they'll cast a slug, just the same as any modern reel, even further from my experience. In all honesty, this one will have probably double the standard drag and could comfortably handle a fish up to 30lb with the innards being up graded.

I have an American friend on the east coast, who years back, spent a lot of time travelling around the world game fishing, he showed me a photo, from the mid 70's, where he landed a 150lb black Marlin, on a stock standard Penn Jigmaster, with it's stock drag barely being 20 lb, that was some effort. Which absolutely goes to show, you don't need to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars, on top class gear to have some fun. Mind you thou, he did say, he never wanted to go through that again 😁, he said it took near 4 hours to land, but they did release it successfully.  I luv my large internationals, don't get me wrong ( which aren't really that modern now) But there's something about taking up the challenge with " the so called lesser gear ".

I've fished a bit with Stella's, as a mate down in Melbourne had a heap of them, Wow, very silky indeed,,, would I ever buy one, or more to the point spend that much coin on an eggbeater,    Nope... But if you can afford it, I say go for it.

[noelm]

Lots of Marlin caught on old Senators, I got one jigging at the “humps” off Shellharbour, on a home made jig, 40lb line and a 4/0 Senator, a fluke no doubt, but, it still happened! The amount of drag is kind of a bit of an advertising “gimmick”, it sounds great in glossy brochures and on TV shows, but reality is a lot different.

[BaitDropper]

3 hours ago, noelm said:

Lots of Marlin caught on old Senators, I got one jigging at the “humps” off Shellharbour, on a home made jig, 40lb line and a 4/0 Senator, a fluke no doubt, but, it still happened! The amount of drag is kind of a bit of an advertising “gimmick”, it sounds great in glossy brochures and on TV shows, but reality is a lot different.

The Senators, still hold big fish records from way back, I guess there stock drag, meant the big fish were more likely not to survive and be released, so I guess the newer gear allows quicker retrieve and therefore a better survival rate.  Most of my Senators that I have Modded, internally and with Tiburon one piece frames, are pulling upwards of 40 pound plus drag.  I remember when I arrived up here, I took a narrowed 4/0 with all the insides done that I'd just finished, to the local Nowra tackle shop, I wanted it spooled with braid, with a 100 meters of mono top shot, a solid alround anything type of reel. I walked in and handed it to the bloke behind the counter, who scoffed at it, he wasn't impressed with it, realized the side plates were of a 4/0 senator, he passed the comment, why would you bother !!  I said that it will be a tank of a reel to him, again he scoffed.. He finished spooling it and I made the comment, that I hadn't obviously tested it, but I was picking it would pull near 50lb of drag, he turned to me and said if that thing makes more than 35lb, you can have a lure for free of your choice !!,  two other blokes walked over, he tested the drag, it came out at 53lb drag, his only come back was, You'll never use that kind of drag anyway, as I laughed at him.  There's no way I could ever stay standing with 50lb plus of drag, but it was more to the fact how strong it was inside, He wandered off muttering to himself,, the other 2 staff wanted me to open it up to look inside, which we did, I never took the option of his free lure of my choice..

Yeah, I guess I just like to tinker with stuff, then enjoy the fruits of my work.

A marlin on a standard 4/0 would have been exciting 🙂, I have got some decent Kingies on an old standard 4/0 years back, one in particular, which was a fair decent model, you could see the cross posts twisting during the fight, the drag was non existent by the end, think it had the old asbestos drags in it, it was never the same reel after that Kingie..

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by BaitDropper

[big Neil]

I'm eagerly awaiting Dr. Raymond's reply. Lots of experienced Fishraider anglers have presented their case on the topic. Suffice to say that there is agreement on the cost/quality of the tackle required. I have seldom fished for Flathead in the way Dr. Raymond stipulates but have landed a metre long Flathead (from a boat, fishing straight below) with my old Murray Cod gear. A 3-6kg rod, 4000 reel, and 20lb mono line, all cheap tackle. The point is that they are not metre long Kingfish, wherever they are caught.

One thing that has sprung to mind, from reading the replies is that fishing tackle has come a very long way from the really heavy fibreglass rods, solid metal reels, and thick mono lines of yesteryear. More recent tackle is definitely more pleasant to use and provides the user with much-improved capabilities.

bn

[noelm]

6 hours ago, BaitDropper said:

The Senators, still hold big fish records from way back, I guess there stock drag, meant the big fish were more likely not to survive and be released, so I guess the newer gear allows quicker retrieve and therefore a better survival rate.  Most of my Senators that I have Modded, internally and with Tiburon one piece frames, are pulling upwards of 40 pound plus drag.  I remember when I arrived up here, I took a narrowed 4/0 with all the insides done that I'd just finished, to the local Nowra tackle shop, I wanted it spooled with braid, with a 100 meters of mono top shot, a solid alround anything type of reel. I walked in and handed it to the bloke behind the counter, who scoffed at it, he wasn't impressed with it, realized the side plates were of a 4/0 senator, he passed the comment, why would you bother !!  I said that it will be a tank of a reel to him, again he scoffed.. He finished spooling it and I made the comment, that I hadn't obviously tested it, but I was picking it would pull near 50lb of drag, he turned to me and said if that thing makes more than 35lb, you can have a lure for free of your choice !!,  two other blokes walked over, he tested the drag, it came out at 53lb drag, his only come back was, You'll never use that kind of drag anyway, as I laughed at him.  There's no way I could ever stay standing with 50lb plus of drag, but it was more to the fact how strong it was inside, He wandered off muttering to himself,, the other 2 staff wanted me to open it up to look inside, which we did, I never took the option of his free lure of my choice..

Yeah, I guess I just like to tinker with stuff, then enjoy the fruits of my work.

A marlin on a standard 4/0 would have been exciting 🙂, I have got some decent Kingies on an old standard 4/0 years back, one in particular, which was a fair decent model, you could see the cross posts twisting during the fight, the drag was non existent by the end, think it had the old asbestos drags in it, it was never the same reel after that Kingie..

 

It is indeed good fun playing around with reels, I used to “adjust” the cam on old Penn Internationals to change the drag curve. While I agree 100% that everything is way better/lighter/stronger/smoother from the rod butt to the hook, I still find great joy in using old gear, especially on common “bread and butter” fishing. As I said way back, my go to Flathead lure outfit is years old about 6’ long and has 8lb mono on it, but to me, it’s kind of like your old thongs…..,it just “feels right”. All this talk has reminded me it’s time to dig out all my gear and give it all a clean and general “look over” I setup a folding table in the door of the garage and just “tinker” with my gear, respooling and just cleaning/lubing everything before summer comes around.