What were Kingies feeding on?

[faker]

hi guys i was around the area near mosman on the weekend practicing surface fishing and bream fishing and it seems to me Kingies were busting off on Saturday morning. Trying to figure out what they were feeding on. I could not see any large schools of bait fish and I am not sure if jelly prawns swim that far down the system. it caused stuff to jump out of water but i can,t see it clearly. So i am going to guess it was transparent

From previous intel i gathered around the area in middle harbor they seem to be eating some transparent baitfish. Are those anchovies?

I tried chucking a zman pearl white streaks on 3.75 on 1/4 jighead at them, sugapen, paddle tails, prawns lures but no takers.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by faker

[big Neil]

I'm no expert on saltwater fishing Faker but I believe they would be feeding on what saltwater anglers call EYES. Apparently, a very small fish that most of the pelagics eat to supplement their diet. They are very small and, apart from a fly, hard to replicate by the angler.

I believe this information to be correct, but I am open to being corrected if somebody has a different opinion.

bn

[DerekD]

Hi @faker

Unless you actually saw them my bet would be at this time of the year they are more likely to be salmon. The large schools of salmon generally turn up earlier than the kings.

Regardless of what species the predators were yes they were likely feeding on small anchovy. Sometimes referred to as eyes.

Your best bet is the small silver halco twistys in 10gram or even 5 gram. I like to take off the treble and put on a Gamakatsu large eye single hook for several reasons. Does less damage to the fish. They are a little stronger than the treble and remove more easily. As they are black rather than the silver trebles they reduce the visible length of the lure making them closer in size to what the fish are feeding on.

Even better. Buy an Eye fly and tie it to the rear hook of the Twisty with about 30cm of line. Best of both worlds.

[faker]

17 minutes ago, DerekD said:

Hi @faker

Unless you actually saw them my bet would be at this time of the year they are more likely to be salmon. The large schools of salmon generally turn up earlier than the kings.

Regardless of what species the predators were yes they were likely feeding on small anchovy. Sometimes referred to as eyes.

Your best bet is the small silver halco twistys in 10gram or even 5 gram. I like to take off the treble and put on a Gamakatsu large eye single hook for several reasons. Does less damage to the fish. They are a little stronger than the treble and remove more easily. As they are black rather than the silver trebles they reduce the visible length of the lure making them closer in size to what the fish are feeding on.

Even better. Buy an Eye fly and tie it to the rear hook of the Twisty with about 30cm of line. Best of both worlds.

The king was only 2 meter away near surface but was cruising when i confirmed identity. splashes was further out when i initially saw them

what size single hook do you recommend for kings?

Edited November 6, 2023 by faker

[noelm]

There were birds everywhere out the front of my place a few days ago, I cast for ages until I foul hooked a fish, it was an oversized Slimey and “spewed up”  tiny baitfish maybe 20mm long, I swapped to a tiny barrel sinker and just a hook and ended up with a Salmon and a couple more Slimies. Best guess that they are same baitfish that you saw.

Edited November 6, 2023 by noelm
Typo

[noelm]

3 minutes ago, faker said:

The king was only 2 meter away near surface but was cruising when i confirmed identity. splashes was further out when i initially saw them

what size single hook do you recommend for kings?

The “cruising” Kingfish might not have been anything to do with the feeding school? Lots of fish schools can be fairly easily identified by the way they feed, Tailor will kind of “zip” along, just making a fast slash at food, big schools of Yellowtail and Slimies will “ripple” the surface, Salmon smash the surface to foam when in a frenzy.

[DerekD]

When selecting the hook hold the single alongside the treble and they should be pretty close in size. From memory I believe I use a size #1 (not #1/0) and maybe a size #2 (which I probably use on the 5 gram halco twisty).

[whiskey299]

6 hours ago, DerekD said:

Hi @faker

Unless you actually saw them my bet would be at this time of the year they are more likely to be salmon. The large schools of salmon generally turn up earlier than the kings.

Regardless of what species the predators were yes they were likely feeding on small anchovy. Sometimes referred to as eyes.

Your best bet is the small silver halco twistys in 10gram or even 5 gram. I like to take off the treble and put on a Gamakatsu large eye single hook for several reasons. Does less damage to the fish. They are a little stronger than the treble and remove more easily. As they are black rather than the silver trebles they reduce the visible length of the lure making them closer in size to what the fish are feeding on.

Even better. Buy an Eye fly and tie it to the rear hook of the Twisty with about 30cm of line. Best of both worlds.

Some great advice there Derek.

I have successfully used the 3gram halco twisty with an upgraded treble to land a fussy king. It’s stomach was full of eyes.

it’s that time of the year where they are so focused on the eyes that nothing else matters.  Well maybe live cuttlefish is the exception.

 

[faker]

6 hours ago, DerekD said:

Hi @faker

Unless you actually saw them my bet would be at this time of the year they are more likely to be salmon. The large schools of salmon generally turn up earlier than the kings.

Regardless of what species the predators were yes they were likely feeding on small anchovy. Sometimes referred to as eyes.

Your best bet is the small silver halco twistys in 10gram or even 5 gram. I like to take off the treble and put on a Gamakatsu large eye single hook for several reasons. Does less damage to the fish. They are a little stronger than the treble and remove more easily. As they are black rather than the silver trebles they reduce the visible length of the lure making them closer in size to what the fish are feeding on.

Even better. Buy an Eye fly and tie it to the rear hook of the Twisty with about 30cm of line. Best of both worlds.

 

2 minutes ago, whiskey299 said:

Some great advice there Derek.

I have successfully used the 3gram halco twisty with an upgraded treble to land a fussy king. It’s stomach was full of eyes.

it’s that time of the year where they are so focused on the eyes that nothing else matters.  Well maybe live cuttlefish is the exception.

 

I had the idea of using a packet of these but not sure what weights would be ideal to get them on jigheads

If jighead too lite. I won't get a good cast unless on 6lb which from past experience on fish like that can be rather hairy. Any tips for fishing a 3 inch?

[DerekD]

58 minutes ago, faker said:

 

I had the idea of using a packet of these but not sure what weights would be ideal to get them on jigheads

If jighead too lite. I won't get a good cast unless on 6lb which from past experience on fish like that can be rather hairy. Any tips for fishing a 3 inch?

Trim them down till you get strikes. The Caspar clears can be very effective if used right. Often bigger fish underneath the schools so jig weight not really an issue. Covering ground is more important. Fish the edge of the schools and not the center.

Learn to fish light. That 6lb is breaking at over 10lbs. If I fish light and hook 3 fish and lose 1 and you fish heavier and can't hook up I'm still way ahead of you. It is a buzz and if you let your gear do its work and keep a cool head then you can land really good fish. It takes time but I'm grinning like a happy maniac the whole time.

The worst realistic thing that will happen is you lose a fish, the lure, some leader and maybe some braid. You are chasing kingfish and that is the challenge and the joy.

Edited November 7, 2023 by DerekD

[faker]

5 minutes ago, DerekD said:

Trim them down till you get strikes. The Caspar clears can be very effective if used right. Often bigger fish underneath the schools so jig weight not really an issue. Covering ground is more important. Fish the edge of the schools and not the center.

would 1/6 oz or 1/8oz be best weight? pretty sure 1/4oz the thing will just sink like a rock and it would look out of shape.

[DerekD]

14 minutes ago, faker said:

would 1/6 oz or 1/8oz be best weight? pretty sure 1/4oz the thing will just sink like a rock and it would look out of shape.

Depends how far away they are. I happily use 1/4 jig heads for chasing kings and salmon and have done so for years. What I do do is get size #1H hooks in the TT bullethead jigheads because they look right with a 3" berkley minnow and are also strong enough to land good fish. I also have the 1/6th and 1/8th oz in my kit but they also have the #1H hook. I rarely use the 1/8th as I want to cover ground and get that lure dancing. You cannot outwind the fish. Having that lure moving faster in some ways is better as the fear of missing out instinct kicks in. If they have time to decide if they want the lure then there is a good chance they won't grab it. That retrieve I showed you is effective because it forces them to chase without getting the time to think about it.

One of the people I mentored had two outfits exactly the same with the same lure and jighead. He and his mate were fishing the same school of pelagics. He used the retrieve I taught him and hooked multiple kings. His mate didn't and didn't hook any kings.

Edited November 7, 2023 by DerekD

[DerekD]

Hi @faker have a really close look at that excellent photo that @whiskey299 posted. Look at the head of the baitfish, look at the silver shine along the side, look at the slightly clear tail section of the fish. Once you really see it then you should get a feel why the silver halco twisty, the caspar clear with lead jighead or the eye fly can be so effective. They will hit about 10cm in length by the time we reach late January or February so we can keep going up in lure sizes as the weeks progress.

A typical eye fly (also look at Bay candy)....

And some more:

Edited November 7, 2023 by DerekD

[whiskey299]

2 hours ago, DerekD said:

Hi @faker have a really close look at that excellent photo that @whiskey299 posted. Look at the head of the baitfish, look at the silver shine along the side, look at the slightly clear tail section of the fish. Once you really see it then you should get a feel why the silver halco twisty, the caspar clear with lead jighead or the eye fly can be so effective. They will hit about 10cm in length by the time we reach late January or February so we can keep going up in lure sizes as the weeks progress.

A typical eye fly (also look at Bay candy)....

And some more:

Eye fly lures have been so hard to source and seem to be sold out at most places I’ve looked. Maybe I haven’t been looking hard enough but I managed to find these from Ottos so I’ll give these a go.

[JustJames]

I've been having fun making my own small silvery lures which I have yet to try out.  They should appeal to many hungry fishes...

[Little_Flatty]

If you're having difficulty finding eye flies, PM me as I know a couple of suppliers that have plenty and are very reasonably priced (benefit of taking up fly fishing recently is that you learn where to buy stuff!). I recently bought a bunch of surf candies which should fit the bill. But most of the specialist fly fishing retailers should have lots. Turns out there's a lot of fly anglers out there who started out targeting salmon, tailor and small tunas, as this is one of the things that fly fishing is really good for.

(and no, I'm not tying them myself to sell...UV epoxy is too expensive, my time too limited and I'm too happy chasing flathead to bother with tying my own eyes🤣)

[Little_Flatty]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:58 PM, faker said:

 

I had the idea of using a packet of these but not sure what weights would be ideal to get them on jigheads

If jighead too lite. I won't get a good cast unless on 6lb which from past experience on fish like that can be rather hairy. Any tips for fishing a 3 inch?

You can get these in these minnows in 2 inch as well and they go ok with a size 2-4 jighead. You can get some quite heavy jigheads for quite small hooks if you look hard enough. I remember finding some 1/6th jigheads in size 4 in a bargain bin once when up in QLD. I recall they were Atomic branded. I swiped the lot!

[Yowie]

Not always the same fish species in a feeding school - have seen 4 different types into the one bait school.

Many of the baitfish are no more than 25mm at this time of year. The salmon go beserk in feeding on them (as do pilchards as well), and are not prone to taking small metals, plastics. Flies may be the go as others have suggested, also 5 gram metal lures worth a try.

Kingies will often cruise around the main schools of baitfish while other species are feeding. A couple of weeks back, I could see  salmon swimming on the surface, backs out of the water as they fed on those tiny baitfish. A hundred casts of a small metal into the feeding schools for not a hit, when a hookup finally happened, it was a kingie, right in amongst the feeding salmon.

[faker]

25 minutes ago, Little_Flatty said:

You can get these in these minnows in 2 inch as well and they go ok with a size 2-4 jighead. You can get some quite heavy jigheads for quite small hooks if you look hard enough. I remember finding some 1/6th jigheads in size 4 in a bargain bin once when up in QLD. I recall they were Atomic branded. I swiped the lot!

@Little_Flatty@Yowie I guess it's time to bring out my parramatta river soft lure specials that I have been testing compliments from ali express

This is my 50mm aliexpress easy shiner knockoff but should be effective 

 

I can switch it to size 2 and toss it out on 1/8 hook