Casting advice wanted - sandflats style fishing

[DerekD]

Hi all,

Since getting into lures around 2 decades ago I realised consistent and efficient casting was an important part of effective lure fishing. It wasn't purely about distance but I worked out that distance (and accuracy) came with good technique. Over time I worked the little inefficiencies out of my casting technique. Learning fly fishing also had an impact on my casting as I learned about loading the rod up and casting along straight lines. Helping others improve their casting also helped getting rid of the chaff. I'm at the point where I think I can pick up most outfits and come close to hitting the practical limits of each particular set up. I still look for improvements even if they are minor.

A year or so ago I was introducing a friend to hardbodies and he was casting small crank lures about 4 meters consistently further than I was. Hmmmmmm.... On further investigation I worked out it wasn't that his technique was better than mine but it came down to his set-up. As I have access to several long very gently sloping sandflats I started to look into maximum possible casting range. I bought a 7'8" rod with short butt, put a 1000 reel on it and set it up with PE0.5 braid filled to the optimal point on the spool. I also set up one of my other 1000 reels with a multi-coloured Siglon 8lb braid in PE0.6. I don't notice a significant casting distance difference in the reels when used with the same rod but the Siglon braid really lets me know how well I'm casting based on the colour changes.

On this outfit with an MMD splash prawn 70mm (4.6gram) or a Sugapen 70mm (4.3gram) I can consistently reach around 35m. Rather than a tape measure there is a body of water where I can hit 1m shy of the opposite bank and using the measure tool in Google earth I worked out the length was 35m.

While discussing long cast, light lure outfits for bream I was advised of a custom rod manufacturer who can hit 50 to 80m with their rods. This really got my attention as I would be stoked to get 15m more out of the lures I'm using. On further reading I read that they have used the outfits on days with 50 knot tail winds. That would explain where some of the distance comes from. There were some 30 knot winds this afternoon so I went to a bay where I could take advantage of the southerly. I used two of my outfits and on both I managed to increase my casting distance by 3 or 4 meters but nothing more. I used every little trick up my sleeve to get added distance short of using a drone or taking a Happy Gilmore style run up before casting. I hit the wall. There was nothing left in my proverbial tank.

Is there anyone who can hit a measured (rather than estimated) 50m or better with the MMD splash prawn 70mm or Sugapen 70mm? If yes then how do you do so? Is it a specialised 9 foot or similar outfit. If you are in Sydney I would love to see this and see if I can get further improvements in my range.

Regards,

Derek

Edited February 6 by DerekD

[DerekD]

Ok. I was talking to a friend and we were discussing the impact of reel size versus casting distance. Will a 1000 reel cast further than a 3000 reel or is it the other way round?

Someone did an article on this: https://www.saltstrong.com/articles/3000-1000-spinning-reel-casting-distance/

[noelm]

There is quite a lot of “science” involved in getting good distance, simply raising the rod, stopping, then using the rod to throw a lure does not create long distance, for extra distance, you need to “load” the rod up on the “back swing” and use that stored energy as well as the motion of the rod to cast the lure. I know it sounds obvious, but in reality it’s quite difficult to achieve. To get the timing right is an art, like fly fishing, it’s not just swishing the rod back and forth, it’s timing, practice then practice some more. All this science of course relies on the gear being used to be suitable, rod, reel, line, lure and skill all need to come together in that instant, a too heavy lure, too light, thick line, half full spools all are distance killers.

[noelm]

Just to add, for fishing minded folk,, when at a gathering, get a baitcaster or a small spin reel and place a bucket at set distances and see who can land a weight in the bucket, on the full……it’s fun for fishers and great practice.

[DerekD]

1 hour ago, noelm said:

There is quite a lot of “science” involved in getting good distance, simply raising the rod, stopping, then using the rod to throw a lure does not create long distance, for extra distance, you need to “load” the rod up on the “back swing” and use that stored energy as well as the motion of the rod to cast the lure. I know it sounds obvious, but in reality it’s quite difficult to achieve. To get the timing right is an art, like fly fishing, it’s not just swishing the rod back and forth, it’s timing, practice then practice some more. All this science of course relies on the gear being used to be suitable, rod, reel, line, lure and skill all need to come together in that instant, a too heavy lure, too light, thick line, half full spools all are distance killers.

I agree 100% @noelm and it is also why when working with someone the first time I will spend often an hour or more on casting principles. In about 80% of the people I teach I can get substantial improvements in distance and accuracy and with less effort too. I believe I've gotten good enough at this to get the most out of my gear but to hear someone is getting 15m to 45m further than me really sparks my interest. The challenge I have is I don't want to spend say $1,000 on a new rod designed to get the most casting distance then find out all the little caveats afterwards like it has to be this lure. You need to be standing on a cliff. It needs to be fishing line made of unicorn hair. You also need a tail wind of 50 knots. It was a guesstimated distance as we didn't have a tape measure handy. Now if we could both put the same lure on each outfit under the same conditions and then compare casting distance I feel it is a proper comparison. Try before you buy would also be nice. In my case, a pretty consistent 35m with a 70mm splash prawn is around the most I think it is possible with my outfit. I've gone head to head with @Bennyg78 and his preferred outfits and we are both getting very similar distances consistently. It comes down to a coin toss which one of us will cast further and only by 1 to 2m.

To find out the X factor I'm trying to find someone who can genuinely get these extra distances.with the same lures I'm using and then work out why. I'm quite prepared to spend several hundred dollars to get say a 9 foot specialised bream rod to get 10m further casting distance under normal fishing conditions as it opens up more of the areas I'm able to fish. This was the claim which started this quest for knowledge:

Edited February 6 by DerekD

[Robbo from Sydney]

Thanks Derek for this update . I for one can certainly vouch for the positive outcomes you achieve in helping others improve their casing - in terms of distance, accuracy and comfort!!

[AlbertW]

@DerekD I have found some american ultralight rods going up to 12foot, I'll send you a pm if you want the links

[Steve0]

There's a lot to achieving casting distance distance. Lure needs to be optimal weight for the rod; guides need minimal friction; line need to have minimal diameter AND minimal friction; line needs to be able to handle the stress of hard casting; assuming threadline, the larger to spool the better;  Angle over the lip of the spool needs to be as obtuse as possible, while remaining practical (in your mind think of friction at 90 degrees compared to coming off almost straight); line coming off the reel needs to go through the bottom guide cleanly; and it all needs to come together in a way suits you. 

Here's how distance casters load their rod. You probably won't do that, but experiment to find a method that works for you without trading off too much accuracy.

WFT Gliss is by far the best distance casting line I ever tried, but it comes with impracticalities. Here is a 14lb Gliss to 20lb Black Magic knot that may give you some idea how impossibly thin it is (don't tie using FG, by the way or it may surprise you by slipping off if you knot is less than 100% perfect or doesn't have enough wraps).

 

Here is a review by Starlo. I don't  agree with his ratings. To my mind Gliss is finicky and, unless you tie a good leader knot, it tends to slip off (which is also testament to it's slippery nature).

Casting Distance       10/10
Sensitivity                  On par with regular braid
Knotting                      4/10
Tangling resistance    Can't say - no problems encountered
Value                          Personal decision
Durability and Abrasion resistance. Not good on rock

A review by another regular fisho.    

Summing up. Gliss turned my 80m cast into a 101m cast (measured using cranks of the handle - but line belly would account for some of that). The trade off was the level of care needed with the line. MY fishing when using it was beach and rock - on the move, so casting around rocks most sessions. Gliss didn't like rocks! I didn't like the extra care I needed with knot replacing a leader. If you bear with it, you may learn to love it in a less abrasive environment.

Edited February 7 by Steve0
Forgot the summary

[Little_Flatty]

Hmmm...this discussion sounds familiar @DerekD🤔🤣

I'm quite a good tackle sales person when I want to be...maybe a career change is in order some time in the future 🤣

Derek I have a roll of WFT Gliss somewhere (as mentioned by @Steve0) if you want it. Might be a heavier line class though.

[Bennyg78]

The fella @DerekD references is a custom rod maker and making 9-13 foot bream finnesse rods, I have seen one in person but not used it. He also was using co ploymer as a leader and then has switched to very fine braid as a leader ( he talks about it here in this video). I know a few people who have his rods, I will aim to see if I can have a play with one of them.

[XD351]

Iirc a longer rod should alway give you a better casting distance purely because of tip velocity- just like firing a bullet out of a rifle barrel - the faster it travels the flatter the trajectory and the further it will go . 
I wouldn’t be surprised if you get two identical rods and one cast the same weight a little further because the weight of the lure is closer to the sweet spot that all blanks have. You could try tweaking this sweet spot on your rod by wrapping a layer or two of insulation or masking tape around the ferrule of the rod tip - this will soften the action ever so slightly but you can’t make it harder without surgery- trim the top of the blank ever so slightly . If you want to try a 9ft rod I have an old Daiwa procaster here you’re welcome to borrow - it will throw an unweighted bait junkie critter on a worm hook about 20m and if it helps you to find the answers you seek or gives you a feel for a 9ft rod even better! 

[JustJames]

3 hours ago, Little_Flatty said:

I'm quite a good tackle sales person when I want to buy something for myself

Fixed that for you...no need to thank  🤪

[faker]

10 hours ago, DerekD said:

I agree 100% @noelm and it is also why when working with someone the first time I will spend often an hour or more on casting principles. In about 80% of the people I teach I can get substantial improvements in distance and accuracy and with less effort too. I believe I've gotten good enough at this to get the most out of my gear but to hear someone is getting 15m to 45m further than me really sparks my interest. The challenge I have is I don't want to spend say $1,000 on a new rod designed to get the most casting distance then find out all the little caveats afterwards like it has to be this lure. You need to be standing on a cliff. It needs to be fishing line made of unicorn hair. You also need a tail wind of 50 knots. It was a guesstimated distance as we didn't have a tape measure handy. Now if we could both put the same lure on each outfit under the same conditions and then compare casting distance I feel it is a proper comparison. Try before you buy would also be nice. In my case, a pretty consistent 35m with a 70mm splash prawn is around the most I think it is possible with my outfit. I've gone head to head with @Bennyg78 and his preferred outfits and we are both getting very similar distances consistently. It comes down to a coin toss which one of us will cast further and only by 1 to 2m.

To find out the X factor I'm trying to find someone who can genuinely get these extra distances.with the same lures I'm using and then work out why. I'm quite prepared to spend several hundred dollars to get say a 9 foot specialised bream rod to get 10m further casting distance under normal fishing conditions as it opens up more of the areas I'm able to fish. This was the claim which started this quest for knowledge:

What about a eging rod. They were designed for hardbodies. Flexy tip and strong at back. I once saw as a kid a squid fisho hit 50m with them

[DerekD]

5 hours ago, faker said:

What about a eging rod. They were designed for hardbodies. Flexy tip and strong at back. I once saw as a kid a squid fisho hit 50m with them

Hi @faker,

Thanks for the suggestion. Have thought about a longer rod but I think that it is a little more to it than that. I've got several squid jigs I can send a fair way and casting hasn't been a problem. I also have several 9 foot spinning rods in different casting ranges and three 9 foot fly rods and can really send lures a long way.

The article mentioned casting 50 to 80m with light lures but hasn't defined light lures so I can't go out and get the same lure to see what I can do as a comparison. The reason for mentioning the 70mm Sugapen or 70mm MMD splash prawn is that it sets a baseline and is a readily accessible lure. If someone can cast one of these two lures over 50m then I want to know about it and how they do it. Another factor I have to take into account is a lot of these measurements are guesstimates and 50m is longer than you often think. Without a tape measure or reference points a lot of people would be guessing.

Edited February 7 by DerekD

[DerekD]

Hi @Steve0,

Thanks for the information on the Gliss as it gives me something else to consider when putting together the outfit.

On a side note I've a lead on these long range rods that I'm following (thank @Little_Flatty and @Bennyg78 ) so it will probably be a case of watch this space.

[faker]

13 hours ago, DerekD said:

Hi @faker,

Thanks for the suggestion. Have thought about a longer rod but I think that it is a little more to it than that. I've got several squid jigs I can send a fair way and casting hasn't been a problem. I also have several 9 foot spinning rods in different casting ranges and three 9 foot fly rods and can really send lures a long way.

The article mentioned casting 50 to 80m with light lures but hasn't defined light lures so I can't go out and get the same lure to see what I can do as a comparison. The reason for mentioning the 70mm Sugapen or 70mm MMD splash prawn is that it sets a baseline and is a readily accessible lure. If someone can cast one of these two lures over 50m then I want to know about it and how they do it. Another factor I have to take into account is a lot of these measurements are guesstimates and 50m is longer than you often think. Without a tape measure or reference points a lot of people would be guessing.

The person I saw sent a squid jig squid jig from Balmoral wharf to near the rocks with pipes about 1/2 to 3/4 of the way. 

Edited February 8 by faker

[bluefin]

I changed from a stradic fa 1000 to a 2500 purely for the retrieve speed. Picking up line when working a SP is easier. Didn't really see much difference in casting distance.

[Mike Sydney]

@DerekD good topic. I saw an interesting comparison video from salt strong that suggested a 3000 outcasts a 1000 by a couple yards. I know little about the physics of long casting but surely reducing friction is the ultimate goal?  Without wanting to be too intrusive, you lubing up?

I’d imagine a well lubricated, well spooled reel AND lubricated guides might add some extra distance.

Still, getting an extra 10 meters is very significant on such light gear that I’d imagine rod length to be the bigger driver  

[Steve0]

It is frustrating seeing schools of Salmon just out of reach of your maximum casting distance. Extra casting distance is pleasing, but there was always another school just a little further out. I read a lot of theory learning to get the lead slug out a bit further.

Spool size relates to the changing angle the line travels over the lip of the spool as line comes off during a cast. A newly filled spool with light line probably won't make a lot of difference, but there will be some. Assuming equal service (bits snipped off to re-tie and a wind knot or two) and equal line lost, the smaller capacity spool line level will be further from it's ideal fill level, increasing the angle across the lip and that increases friction. Adding width and/or length to a spool leads to the line angle across the lip changing less during the cast.

For every change, there's a trade-off. Larger reels are heavier and you'll need more line to fill them (not a major problem - use more backing). 

Continuing theory, angle at the spool lip also makes a difference. 

Many modern spools have angled lips that help smooth line angle during casting

The spool in the above is designed for surf casting and also has additional depth as well (red arrow direction). As more line goes out, depth of line on the spool decreases at a slower rate helping slow the decrease in fill level, which helps keep friction down friction. Different manufacturers use different marketing hype for essentially the same thing.

Some reels sold still have small, sharper angles.

That doesn't make them bad reels, just not a good choice for distance casting.  I learnt the hard way that spool lip angle also increases susceptibility to wind knots. I could hear the knots forming at the first guide! On one occasion, the knot tied itself to the guide. 3/4 strength casts only with that reel. A bad choice for surf casting, but it was good on a boat and functioned well enough casting bait from rocks. 

Summing up, longer, wider spools with more obtuse lip angles make better distance casting choices.That's not the end of it. The rod the reel is used on needs a design that accommodates the reel.