Bite leader to existing flurocarbon leader

[lhan]

Some fish raiders mentioned bite leader on light setup which I finally down to give it try after quite some flathead by-catch destroyed my thin leader. 

Could someone please shed some light on how it should be done? Mono or fluro? How it's supposed to connect to the original thing leader? Which knot is preferred? How long/thick is optimal?

Thanks in advance!

PS. sorry for the confusion - I mean the bite leader tied in addition to the existing fc leader used by bream fishos to avoid flatty destroying thin lines. Not braid to leader

 

Edited April 21 by lhan
confusing question

[Steve0]

7 hours ago, lhan said:

Some fish raiders mentioned bite leader on light setup which I finally down to give it try after quite some flathead by-catch destroyed my thin leader. 

Could someone please shed some light on how it should be done? Mono or fluro? How it's supposed to connect to the original thing leader? Which knot is preferred? How long/thick is optimal?

Thanks in advance!

Flouro is traditionally used as leader. It's a fraction tougher than mono (e.g. for scraping across rock), but there's not a lot in it. I don't subscribe to the theory that invisibility to fish matters (but for some species, feel makes them hesitant).  Mono is generally more flexible and stretches (more forgiving), but I doubt that makes much difference in the length used for leader.   

How much leader to tie is a  'piece of string' question. From a boat (or rocks) chasing huge fish, a long wind-on leader stops the fish's tail and scales abrading the line (FG knot is THE thin knot, so easily the best choice).  For other fishing, I recommend a length that avoids your leader knot passing through guides during casting. So, use a little less leader than you would hang from the rod tip during a cast. This is a balance between running through guides and the need to re-tie a new leader as lures are lost, or the section close to the hook is nibbled by pest fish, or a little leader abraded by structure. Others may have different thoughts.    

The FG leader knot is the best knot for resulting thickness and strength, but it can be a frustrating knot until you learn it. I suggest you start easy. Here's are two fairly easy knots for you to try (OK for joins between any combination of braid, mono, flouro). Lefty Kreh and Yucatan.

  Here's another fairly easy knot:

I have no doubt someone else will post an FG knot. There are many different ways to tie it, different people think different ways are 'the easiest'. In the long term, it's a knot you may need. The FG knot works like a finger trap. Tie is slightly wrong and the braid losing grip on the leader. It's a knot you need to practice a few times to gain confidence, before you tie it in the field.

[zmk1962]

Pretty much agree with everything @Steve0 said. The only addition from me is that I prefer my leader length to run through the length of the rod with a couple of turns on the reel - I do a lot of boat fishing but I do this for my casting outfits (beach, spin etc) as well. Braid fails more easily than mono/fluoro from abrasion- which occurs most in those last few meters when bringing in a fish - whether rubbing against boat surfaces or rocks etc  I have found that when beach fishing braid has snapped at the top guide after repetitive casting- I concluded the braid had worn there due to a build up of dry salt on the top guide. Hence I prefer a long leader running through the rod length which means I use the lowest profile knot I know - the FG knot - so there is least resistance when casting.

The FG takes a little practice to master but it’s well worth it. Most people tie the FG using a jig as it’s crucial to maintain tension when tying this knot. You can buy jigs or make a DIY version- here’s a link to mine below, if you search the forums you’ll find others as well.

https://community.deckee.com/topic/88225-tying-fg-knot-with-diy-jig/#comment-646088

cheers Zoran 

Edited April 20 by zmk1962

[mrsswordfisherman]

That is brilliant Zoran. 
If I was tying knots I would use the diy contraption there.

Luckily, Swordie ties every knot. He spends days before and after fishing trips getting things ready. It is a rare thing that we have ever lost a fish due to knot failure! He would be very cross with himself if that occurred  

[lhan]

Thanks for the reply @Steve0 @zmk1962 @mrsswordfisherman! Please accept my apology first as I made it confusing - I'm using fg knot to connect my braid mainline to flurocarbon leader now, mainly 6lb main to 4-8 fc leader. The issue is by-catches happen a lot when I'm using light lines where it's getting expensive quite quickly 😂. I heard there's some bream fishos would tie a short bite leader (like 20cm I guess?) in addition to the existing 4/6lbs flurocarbon leader. I'm seeking advice on what's the general rule on this trick.

It's a good enforcement learning with all the details tho, really appreciate still !

[slothparade]

Wouldn't you 

2 hours ago, lhan said:

Thanks for the reply @Steve0 @zmk1962 @mrsswordfisherman! Please accept my apology first as I made it confusing - I'm using fg knot to connect my braid mainline to flurocarbon leader now, mainly 6lb main to 4-8 fc leader. The issue is by-catches happen a lot when I'm using light lines where it's getting expensive quite quickly 😂. I heard there's some bream fishos would tie a short bite leader (like 20cm I guess?) in addition to the existing 4/6lbs flurocarbon leader. I'm seeking advice on what's the general rule on this trick.

It's a good enforcement learning with all the details tho, really appreciate still !

Wouldnt you just do a double uni knot? If going mono to fluro? 

Just so Im understanding the issue, are you trying to do braid -> light leader -> heavier leader 

Or braid -> heavier leader -> lighter leader? 

So if your loosing gear, due to the leader snapping, the fatties are biting through your leader or breaking you off. 

Or are you trying to make like a sacrificial leader that goes to your hook and has stronger leader between that and your main line? 

 

[lhan]

5 minutes ago, slothparade said:

Wouldn't you 

Wouldnt you just do a double uni knot? If going mono to fluro? 

Just so Im understanding the issue, are you trying to do braid -> light leader -> heavier leader 

Or braid -> heavier leader -> lighter leader? 

So if your loosing gear, due to the leader snapping, the fatties are biting through your leader or breaking you off. 

Or are you trying to make like a sacrificial leader that goes to your hook and has stronger leader between that and your main line? 

 

Hi I'm trying to do a braid - light leader - heavier leader. I think a double uni will do on the light leader - heavier leader connection, just seeking if there is better knot and generally how heavy and long the "heavier" leader should be. Thanks!

[zmk1962]

1 hour ago, lhan said:

Hi I'm trying to do a braid - light leader - heavier leader. I think a double uni will do on the light leader - heavier leader connection, just seeking if there is better knot and generally how heavy and long the "heavier" leader should be. Thanks!

I think a double uni would do the job. But you are fishing with relatively light lines so a double blood knot would work as well.  This is the easiest/quickest way that I have found to tie that knot ... infact I now use this for joining mono>mono or braid>braid and it has not failed me....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4Z1GH_iE7Z/?igsh=MXVwdzRwZ2czdzgwcQ==

The video suggest to use this for braid>mono but I do not see how that would work ... 

Cheers Zoran

 

Edited April 21 by zmk1962

[zmk1962]

7 hours ago, mrsswordfisherman said:

That is brilliant Zoran. 
If I was tying knots I would use the diy contraption there.

Luckily, Swordie ties every knot. He spends days before and after fishing trips getting things ready. It is a rare thing that we have ever lost a fish due to knot failure! He would be very cross with himself if that occurred  

Thanks Donna, Although I made that DIY jig primarily for the boat, I actually now keep it on land and use it when setting up rods pre or post trip.  I have found a much simpler FG knot tying jig on the boat ... here it is: 

11in long nose pliers (always carried onboard)... note the rubber grip handles, and a handle from a plastic crate (just happened to be the right size)

Tadaaaah ... the new DIY FG knot jig simulated as if sitting in a rod holder.  I find a couple of extra turns of braid on the rubber grip handles holds the braid from slipping. 

 

I'm very much like Swordie ... I've worked out a set of knots that work for what I do and they have not failed me - I'd be mortified if they did.  I also pre-rig everything so it only requires a snap swivel to change from live bait rig, to a paternoster etc.  Time is of the essence on the water.

Cheers Zoran

[slothparade]

1 hour ago, lhan said:

Hi I'm trying to do a braid - light leader - heavier leader. I think a double uni will do on the light leader - heavier leader connection, just seeking if there is better knot and generally how heavy and long the "heavier" leader should be. Thanks!

I've used double unis on kings, snapper, rays. Never had an issue. Even double uni braid to fluro works well for lighter line. 

Light - heavy leader defeats the purpose of using light leader. You are just introducing another weak point into your line. You are best just to go main line to heavier leader, try 6-8 lbs fluro. That will give you a better chance than 4 lbs. 

[Alkor]

Here comes some interesting old school info and practise from East Germany all those years back in the 70-80'.
Leaders over there were always thinner in diameter and breaking strain than the main line! Unless you fished for toothy critters. Then we would use a piano wire.😃
All lines were Mono and the thinnest would have been 0.22mm going up to 0.45-0.5mm for the stronger varieties. I have no memory of what the breaking strains were. Main purpose was to protect your more expensive main line from being broken when snagged or hooked to a big fish.
These days it is a different setup. Leaders are generally stronger than the main line. Thus risking to loose a big chunk of expensive braid main line when snagged.

Anything is expensive nowadays!

Back then I could catch fish for little investment to boost the dinner table. For the price of a top outfit in any of the fisho shops today I can buy a lot of seafood even in a fancy store. Good thing is I am land based, so no expense for a floating platform to invest in. Nor the car to drag it around.

Lean fishing is on my mind - Simple gear, GOOD Food.

BTW my last catch was a 15cm Tailor @ Illawong Bay on a red wriggler - my first tailor. Released!!😀

Edited April 21 by Alkor

[Green Hornet]

As others have said, a simple double uni or blood knot will suffice for your mono to mono/fluoro connection, or you can also try a 3 or 4 turn surgeons knot, which is strong and easy to tie.

Regarding length of the bite leader, keep them at around 100-150mm. That’s plenty to protect yourself from a large flatty or tailor.

[Little_Flatty]

2 hours ago, Green Hornet said:

As others have said, a simple double uni or blood knot will suffice for your mono to mono/fluoro connection, or you can also try a 3 or 4 turn surgeons knot, which is strong and easy to tie.

Regarding length of the bite leader, keep them at around 100-150mm. That’s plenty to protect yourself from a large flatty or tailor.

The surgeon’s knot has been a revelation for me. I only came across it when I started out fly fishing, to put together my tapered leaders. It’s astonishing how strong it is and how easy it is to tie. It would be great for attaching a 150mm bite leader to the end of your light fluorocarbon. Worth taking ten seconds to learn it.

[Green Hornet]

4 hours ago, Little_Flatty said:

The surgeon’s knot has been a revelation for me. I only came across it when I started out fly fishing, to put together my tapered leaders. It’s astonishing how strong it is and how easy it is to tie. It would be great for attaching a 150mm bite leader to the end of your light fluorocarbon. Worth taking ten seconds to learn it.

Back before the FG was a thing, the surgeons knot was extremely popular for joining leaders to braid in the lighter line classes. That, and my old favorite the slim beauty. 

[big Neil]

On 4/21/2024 at 8:08 AM, zmk1962 said:

Pretty much agree with everything @Steve0 said. The only addition from me is that I prefer my leader length to run through the length of the rod with a couple of turns on the reel - I do a lot of boat fishing but I do this for my casting outfits (beach, spin etc) as well. Braid fails more easily than mono/fluoro from abrasion- which occurs most in those last few meters when bringing in a fish - whether rubbing against boat surfaces or rocks etc  I have found that when beach fishing braid has snapped at the top guide after repetitive casting- I concluded the braid had worn there due to a build up of dry salt on the top guide. Hence I prefer a long leader running through the rod length which means I use the lowest profile knot I know - the FG knot - so there is least resistance when casting.

The FG takes a little practice to master but it’s well worth it. Most people tie the FG using a jig as it’s crucial to maintain tension when tying this knot. You can buy jigs or make a DIY version- here’s a link to mine below, if you search the forums you’ll find others as well.

https://community.deckee.com/topic/88225-tying-fg-knot-with-diy-jig/#comment-646088

cheers Zoran 

An interesting reply Zoran. Good line Braid, but it makes me wonder how we survived in the dark ages before its conception. It certainly has its benefits for me and accurate casting into snags with lures using baitcast outfits...something much easier these days. Very interesting conclusion about the salt build up on the top eye of the rod.

Cheers, bn

[XD351]

I think a lot of lure fishing newbies get a little swept away with the hype about this knot being better than that knot and for x amount of reasons . I think of it this way ( yours is probably different ) but if you use an FG knot which takes a bit of time to learn , time to tie and is a known strong knot then use  a weaker knot to tie your lure on then isn’t  all that effort wasted ? If you are sitting on the bank fumbling around trying to tie a knot like the FG  you are not fishing - if your lure isn’t in the water then you can’t catch anything . This point was driven home to me in the comments on a  YouTube video I watched recently, the guy uses an improved albright to connect his leader and he copped a bit of an ear bashing by the FG fraternity. His reply was simple and to the point - the knot I tie my lure on is the weakest point , I can tie this knot blindfolded, it goes out through the guides ok and it has never let me down . I think that for a mug angler like me this reasoning will be good enough .

[Steve0]

On 4/20/2024 at 10:08 PM, zmk1962 said:

 I concluded the braid had worn there due to a build up of dry salt on the top guide. Hence I prefer a long leader running through the rod length which means I use the lowest profile knot I know - the FG knot - so there is least resistance when casting.

 

I tie FG at home (only if line or leader is damaged at the end of the last session). In the field I keep moving and prefer a knot I can tie standing with rod leaning on one shoulder (but do use anything convenient as a rest). The reason for short leader is that mainline is lighter than leader.

I explore some fairly daunting structure and cunje is a lure magnet. Unless lucky enough that the hook tears through, snag = lost lure. Up to five per session. Any fuzzy braid is discarded when a new leader is tied. Other than that, my rod tip doesn't get much opportunity to leave a salt crust due to evaporation. However, I plan to keep salt crust in mind in future.

 

 

[R E G I C Y C L E]

@lhan just wondering if you had tried this bite leader idea and what results you had?

[slowjigger]

On 4/20/2024 at 9:53 PM, lhan said:

Some fish raiders mentioned bite leader on light setup which I finally down to give it try after quite some flathead by-catch destroyed my thin leader. 

Could someone please shed some light on how it should be done? Mono or fluro? How it's supposed to connect to the original thing leader? Which knot is preferred? How long/thick is optimal?

Thanks in advance!

PS. sorry for the confusion - I mean the bite leader tied in addition to the existing fc leader used by bream fishos to avoid flatty destroying thin lines. Not braid to leader

 

 

I don't see the point - why not just up your leader size and not have the fuss of an extra knot in the system? I use 4 kg mono as leader when fishing for bream with SP's. It doesn't seem to put the bream off and I have landed plenty of flathead and jewies on it by playing them carefully. 

Edited September 10 by slowjigger

[R E G I C Y C L E]

The main reason I'm interested in the idea is I use a super thin and strong pe 0.6 braid (for casting distance and sensitivity), which will literally cut any leader over 8lb. I fished exclusively 6lb leader because of this last summer for bream, and lost count of the number of crankbaits I lost to hungry flatties. My favourite bream crank is also unfortunately a flatty lolly.

[slowjigger]

25 minutes ago, R E G I C Y C L E said:

The main reason I'm interested in the idea is I use a super thin and strong pe 0.6 braid (for casting distance and sensitivity), which will literally cut any leader over 8lb. I fished exclusively 6lb leader because of this last summer for bream, and lost count of the number of crankbaits I lost to hungry flatties. My favourite bream crank is also unfortunately a flatty lolly.

You could tie a bimini double in braid first. That's what I do. This greatly improves the knot strength of the braid to leader knot. I just use a double uni knot for that. I haven't lost any flathead on 4 kg leader. I'm careful not to let their heads out of the water as this makes them thrash from side to side. You could also try a co polymer mono as these are said to be much more abrasion resistant. 

[campr]

There appears to be some confusion between leaders and a trace. 

Leader.   Line from braid to mono usually via FG knot. I prefer length to just allow a couple of turns on reel.  Any running sinker run on this section ending with a swivel.  I prefer a soft bead to pad between swivel and sinker.

Trace.  Line between hook and swivel below sinker. This is what the original enquiry was about as it can be heavier line to prevent bite offs.  I prefer fluorocarbon for its toughness and it can be as long or short as you prefer.

When lure fishing,  there is no swivel or sinker of course and leader and trace are joined with a double Uni knot.  That's my take on original question.  Ron

[lhan]

15 hours ago, R E G I C Y C L E said:

The main reason I'm interested in the idea is I use a super thin and strong pe 0.6 braid (for casting distance and sensitivity), which will literally cut any leader over 8lb. I fished exclusively 6lb leader because of this last summer for bream, and lost count of the number of crankbaits I lost to hungry flatties. My favourite bream crank is also unfortunately a flatty lolly.

Hi @R E G I C Y C L E yes I've tried it using a double uni knot based on suggestions from @Hill373737. It works well but I didn't try that many times tho because after moving into winter I was using micro jigs and blades mostly which reduced the chance of fish gulped the lure and bit leader directly. Also a telescopic net dramatically improved my situation because I don't need to lift fish on a damaged leader. That said I didn't lose many fish due to leader broken in the past several months on 6lb fluoro. I still got busted off several times but I don't think a bit leader could help with those cases.

Also as everyone said, even bream are commonly believed to be line shy, up to 10lb leader still catch them from my own experience too.

15 hours ago, slowjigger said:

You could tie a bimini double in braid first. That's what I do. This greatly improves the knot strength of the braid to leader knot. I just use a double uni knot for that. I haven't lost any flathead on 4 kg leader. I'm careful not to let their heads out of the water as this makes them thrash from side to side. You could also try a co polymer mono as these are said to be much more abrasion resistant. 

I agree with the technique keeping flathead below the water as much as we can. It basically makes them numb except a few dashes. Some of them will do some crazy headshakes still and spit hook but it's a different issue.

12 hours ago, campr said:

There appears to be some confusion between leaders and a trace. 

Leader.   Line from braid to mono usually via FG knot. I prefer length to just allow a couple of turns on reel.  Any running sinker run on this section ending with a swivel.  I prefer a soft bead to pad between swivel and sinker.

Trace.  Line between hook and swivel below sinker. This is what the original enquiry was about as it can be heavier line to prevent bite offs.  I prefer fluorocarbon for its toughness and it can be as long or short as you prefer.

When lure fishing,  there is no swivel or sinker of course and leader and trace are joined with a double Uni knot.  That's my take on original question.  Ron

Thanks for the clarification Ron. Yes that's exactly what I meant

[dirvin21]

15 hours ago, R E G I C Y C L E said:

The main reason I'm interested in the idea is I use a super thin and strong pe 0.6 braid (for casting distance and sensitivity), which will literally cut any leader over 8lb. I fished exclusively 6lb leader because of this last summer for bream, and lost count of the number of crankbaits I lost to hungry flatties. My favourite bream crank is also unfortunately a flatty lolly.

You can get plenty of abrasion resistance with 8lb leader especially if you back your drag off and play gently on flatties, going from 6-8 won't effect your bream fishing too much especially if you use a good quality fluorocarbon 

[R E G I C Y C L E]

On 9/11/2024 at 9:18 AM, dirvin21 said:

You can get plenty of abrasion resistance with 8lb leader especially if you back your drag off and play gently on flatties, going from 6-8 won't effect your bream fishing too much especially if you use a good quality fluorocarbon 

Thanks Dave, I'll try upping leader size slightly.