zmk1962
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Posts posted by zmk1962
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Yes... its a docking competition... but as I said... serious skills and serious guts... and you don't want this behaviour around a warf.
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1 minute ago, rickmarlin62 said:
in reality if you drop 25% in power you will lose more than 25% performance..therefore working the smaller motor harder to do the same speeds you do now you will be using more revs therefore more fuel..rick
Hey Rick... yup well aware... thats the fundamental we 55yo's have grown up on....but look at the stats of the modern outboards:
19.0kts (35.1km/h) @ 3000rpm
23.7kts (43.8km/h) @ 3500rpmI'd be happy as s**t doing 3500rm and running at 43km/h out to Browns... There is something going on with the new gen motors thats putting the torque way down low in the RPM range. I don't need the top end snap neck performance (...sigh there's the 55yo showing again!). I just need to push my trusty hull at its comfortable offshore cruising speed which has always been the 19-25kts range.
Cheers and Thanks
Zoran
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Thanks MainframeJames ... my 200HP 2St Merc is 18yrs old and still thumping ... I really hoped this post didn't become a thread about 4St vs 2St ... I really wanted it to be a discussion about 150HP experiences on a 6m hull 2.2t load.
Cheers
Zoran
PS 1: Interesting name "Mainframe" - as some know...I have a history in mainframes....PM me with how that name came about.
PS 2 : Hey Raiders... if you wanna debate 4st vs 2st experiences ... please do but that needs some other folks to post their interest and start a thread -- there are lots of unoccupied, unwritten posts to be made on this great site :-) .. and I will participate with my experiences as well....I promise not to be shy !
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Thanks for the stats Antony ... PM sent. Cheers Z
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2 hours ago, PaddyT said:
Yep - I reckon a 200hp , BTW where do you get such lightweight crew!
HA ! ... lets just say they are averages... At 70Kg my buddies call me a light weight... so you can tell where the extra comes in to make up the average... Just sayin'
Cheers
Z
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He has some serious skills and b***s ... lets just say "other necessary equipment" ..... but now let's hope this guy is not around our favourite warf on the weekend!
Cheers
Zoran
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Thanks PaddyT... yup the 200HP Merc is 175kg and the 15HP Mariner is 50kg... so I am currently carrying 225kg. To compensate for the Aux and the live bait tank (35kg) which also sits on the marlin board I have extended my pod so that it does provide an extra 90kg lift over the standard Haines pod. The new pod provides lift at rest and helps hole shot ....then when on a plane sits clear of the hull water line. I have also installed a 100L fresh water bladder under the v bunks and recently the anchor winch (50kg)... so she is very well balanced with even weight distribution. My calculations with 4 crew... realistically 2200kg on the water.
Despite that with the current 200hp she easily hits 50+knts at 5500rpm in calm water e.g. Hawkesbury: Juno to Parsley Bay, Middle Harbour up near Sugarloaf bay etc.
Cheers
Zoran
On the water weight calc: Total 2155kg
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Hull 1100
Merc 175
Mariner 50
fuel 200
Water 100
Gear 70
Anchor Winch 50
3 Marine Batteries 90
Crew 1 80
Crew 2 80
Crew 3 80
Crew 4 80 -
Hey Raiders, I really appreciate the healthy debate - we all have different experiences - and I really value them all. At the end of the day it will be my decision based on my criteria - as ultimately I have to live with it !!
I've had an excellent run with my black Mercury .... 18yrs before the first hiccup... It has been looked after and even now, my mechanic is telling me there is near new compression in all cylinders, strong spark etc and I would easily get many many more years out of the motor. So I am not in desperate need to change.
But at the same time I am aware it is an 18yr old technology, and many advances have occurred. My needs have also changes somewhat. So I am doing what I typically do, which is to get my decision criteria sorted so that when I see a good deal I can act on it immediately. That's how I bought this 200HP - I had a 225HP Yammie that came with the boat. After 4yrs of using it, I had decided it was not the right motor for my needs and did my research and narrowed down my options. Then on the last day of a boat show - had a chat to a few dealers and bam there was the offer $12k installed !!! Done and dusted. Sold the Yammie separately and the change over for me was sweet.
As I mentioned I am not set on 4St vs 2St ....I am after peoples experiences on 6m hulls with modern 150HP motors.
In my experience you can't just compare HP ratings especially across decades of motor evolution.
(I am looking at the 150HP class mainly because I am trying to keep the weight down. All the 175HPs that I have looked at use the 200+HP blocks and hence come with the extra weight - so you might as well go for the 200hp output.)
My research so far has had me leaning to the 4St and in particular the 150hp Merc as that has a 3L displacement which to me translates to low down torque. (All of the other 4St 150hps and even my current 200HP are 2.5L so in my rudimentary understanding rely on revs to develop the torque).
I also came across this review of a CBS Huntsman 6000 (6m hull) with a 150HP Merc 4St...(I'd love to see similar for the eTec G2 150 if anyone has found it).
PERFORMANCE - SPEED
4.2kts (7.8km/h) @ 1000rpm
5.9kts (10.9km/h)@ 1500rpm
7.1kts (13.1km/h) @ 2000rpm
11.7kts (21.6km/h) @ 2500rpm
19.0kts (35.1km/h) @ 3000rpm
23.7kts (43.8km/h) @ 3500rpm
27.6kts (51.0km/h) @ 4000rpm
32.0kts (59.2km/h) @ 4500rpm
35.3kts (65.3km/h) @ 5000rpm
40.0kts (75.0km/h) @ 5500rpm
40.8kts (75.5km/h) @ 5600rpm (WOT)PERFORMANCE – ECONOMY
3.6 l/ph @ 1000rpm
5.4 l/ph @ 1500rpm
8.6 l/ph @ 2000rpm
11.7 l/ph @ 2500rpm
14.3 l/ph @ 3000rpm
18.1 l/ph @ 3500rpm
24.1 l/ph @ 4000rpm
31.4 l/ph @ 4500rpm
38.6 l/ph @ 5000rpm
52.0 l/ph @ 5500rpm
53.5 l/ph @ 5600rpm (WOT)My hull is older than the tested CBS Huntsman and probably 10% heavier, but this made me think that maybe a modern 150HP would do the job for me.
Hence I am after experiences with that modern 150HP - 6M fiberglass hull combination.
Back Cruncher I wouldn't mind having a chat to your mate that had the 21 Trophy if he is open to it - just PM me - Y/N.
Thanks everyone.
Cheers
Zoran
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I hear you guys....
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Thanks GoingFishing ... great info... it's not readily avaialable .... it comes from genuine folks that are prepared to share on the few sites like this one. I have sent you a PM... Cheers Z
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On 10/23/2017 at 4:05 PM, sam bros said:
That was lucky you had the aux motor
How old is the 200hp merc?
Did you manage to find the problem?
Hi Sam Bros... it was all fixed yesterday and purring like a big cat again. The Merc is a 1999 200HP EFI XL Saltwater series which I purchased new. She has done 262hrs and always been looked after - the hours show just shows how busy I have been with work and I am happy to say that is behind me now and I have a lot more time to play. Anyway it appears that the flywheel had loosened and spun which threw all the timing out. The mechanic said this is the first such case he has ever seen .... and I said...if its so rare - why me?
Anyway, just shows things can go wrong even with the best maintained gear.
Now for the weather to clear to get back out again !!!!
Cheers
Zoran
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.....you would have been a terrible kid with your toys... always pulling them apart (just like me !!!! he he he) Cheers Z
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On 11/3/2017 at 7:14 AM, GoingFishing said:
Mate i know were talking apples and oranges but have you considered Evinrude ?
They just released a 150HP G2 which is the same engine block as the 175 and 200hp. Low end power is the same as the 200hp but top end power is tuned down to 150.
I just had one installed on my boat and the power of this 150 g2 is unbeleivable to say the least. Power steering and i-TRIM come standard
2 strokes get trash talked alot but ive owned two so far and as long as u maintain them propery you wont have any problems.
Hi GoingFishing, Thanks for the input and taking time to reply. The main thing I am looking for right now is peoples experiences with a 150hp on a 6m fibreglass hull. So I am really not too concerned at present whether its 2St or 4St.
But yes I have looked at the eTecs. A mates cousin also has an eTec on his Seafarer and is happy with it. I understand the design behind the DI 2St and how they are achieving the power/economy/emission results but I just have this feeling the Evinrude are out there on their own. I mean just about everyone else is working on technical advances in 4st in both marine and auto fields and I don't hear much about 2St DI except from Evinrude. I fear it may end up a bit like the Sony Beta vs VHS scenario. I don't put a lot of wear and tear on my gear (too busy) so tend to hold onto my motors for quite a while - perhaps too long. So to me its also important that I can access mechanics down the track that are familiar with the technology. There just seems to be a lot more going on in the 4St world with all the outboard manufacturers. I may have it completely wrong, but it just seems that way to me.
Cheers
Zoran
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On 11/3/2017 at 6:58 AM, Croydon said:
Hi Zoran,
I have owned a 150 Merc 4s for three years now and I am very happy with it. I have had 400 odd hours of trouble free ownership. It's on a 560C bar crusher and has more than enough power for what I need. A mate also has the same motor on a similar model Haines to yours. He has about 600 hours on it and is very happy with it's performance and economy. I'm not sure what prop he's running but it pushes his Haines along without an issue. Cheers..........
Dave
Thanks Dave...good to hear more positive reviews. Would you mind asking your mate if he is ok for a 5min chat (I have PM'd you my mobile, he can text me and I'll call him)... Cheers Z
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Hey Raiders,
I am starting to think about a possible repower of the trusty Haines 635L. It currently has a Merc EFI 200HP Saltwater series and Mariner 15hp 4st Aux.
I don’t need the waterski pulling performance of the 200... but do like to do the long runs out to Browns, 12mile, Long Reef and FADs. We typically cruise in the 30-45km/h (20-30knts) range - as that's where the hull sits comfortably with 3-4 on board.
All the 200hp 4Strokes that I have looked at weigh in at 227-270kgs.... which is a lot more than the 175kg weight of the Merc 200hp.
I have heard good things about the Merc 150HP 4stroke (200kg 3L displacement and said to deliver lots of torque) but I'm just wondering if a 150hp would do the job on my Haines?
I am keen to hear from any raiders that currently run a 150hp (any brand) on a 6-6.5m fiberglass halfcab hull.
Either post or PM - which ever you prefer.
Thanks Raiders.
Cheers
Zoran
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Hi Dave,
I'm a bit distracted trying to fix my motor so slow in replying.
Yes it is normal to have two ports... think of it as one port is used to output your GPS location, the other port is used to receive a GPS location from another source.
Your manual seems to describe the two NMEA ports as:
Yellow - NMEA Out
Blue - NMEA In
Baud rate is an old term used with serial communication devices like modems... it basically is the speed at which you want the conversation to occur. Set it to the highest rate that is supported by your Radio and GPS system - it must be set to the same on both.
Yes for DSC you need your MMSI, and MMSI requires you to have a certificate of proficiency to use the VHF unit.
I'm not sure I would say DSC is useless without MMSI - they go hand in hand...as I see it having a unique identifier (MMSI) is a necessary requirement to implement DSC.
DSC is your radio talking in digital language across the VHF radio bands - your MMSI is tagged into that digital sentence to identify you as the sender, similarly your MMSI could be the receiver address of a DSC message intended for you. You are sharing the airways after all - it would get terribly confusing if every DSC message was plotted on your receiver and vice versa.
Regarding the need for a certificate of proficiency - VHF is commercial band - so all maritime traffic control, emergency services etc are on. The radio frequencies assigned to VHF are limited shared resources - one conversation at a time on a channel - so everyone should have a basic proficiency on how to use the resource. Think of it as if you are in an emergency trying to get through - you want the airways clear for that conversation not cluttered by some joker who wants to talk about his weekend to his mate.
So they build on each other and you unlock more value as you go - Certificate of Proficiency (VHF), MMSI (your identity), DSC full function.
Cheers
Zoran
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13 hours ago, Sigma said:
Hi Raiders,
Since we are discussing radios, I'm still to get my head around this NMEA 0183 and NMEA 2000.
What is the difference? I have a HDS Gen2 Touch Chartplotter and a GME 600D VHF Marine Radio with DSC.
Apparently, you can connect the two together so that your GPS mark will be transmitted if the DSC button on the radio is pressed in case of emergency. How do you connect the two.... is it via NMEA 2000 or NMEA 0183?
Also, played around with the radio and it asks for a MMSI number? How do you obtain one?
Any help is appreciated...
Cheers
Dave
Hi Dave,
As far as I understand it NMEA 0183 and NMEA 2000 are protocol standards ... think of them as languages. So you need a GPS unit and Radio that can speak the same language/protocol. If they support both protocols then in the GPS/Radio settings you need to select the protocol that you want them to use. From a physical connectivity perspective, the GPS and VHF manufacturers should be able to provide you with a wiring schematic on how to hook them up. As an example I have attached the one that I found for my Standard Horizon GX1600. I understand that newer units are more plug and play so have standard plugs to facilitate connectivity. In my case, I installed my system in 2012 and I had to resort to good old soldering.
Regarding MMSI ... all the info is here: https://www.amsa.gov.au/search-and-rescue/about-the-gmdss/mmsi-information/index.asp
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I have used a Standard Horizon GX1600 since 2012 - no issues so far, solid unit.
Cheers
Zoran
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Thanks guys.... I thought I had a crew of 3.... BUT we didn't realise that bugger Murphy had snuck on board as well !!!
Anyway just recently I was thinking of selling the 15hp Aux as I installed it in 1998 (new motor) and never had to use it as an Aux previously. So with all this industry talk about outboard reliability I was thinking that maybe I was being too anal and I really didn't need it -- even though I did use it to troll on when out wide (it drank max 4L/hr) so was effective to keep the fuel costs down.
But yesterday Murphy convinced me the 15hp Aux is gonna stay right where it is.
Cheers
Zoran
PS - it pushed my heavy Haines at around 9 -11km/h in the 1.2m swell yesterday.
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Hi Brew,
Yes I got out on the water but it was a very mixed day for me....
We got to Parsley Bay at 7am... Forecast was for 30-40km southerly so plan was hide behind headland out of the wind and to fish the last 2hrs of rising tide over Flint and Steel.... with peak high tide at 10am. So while catching live bait near Gunyah at 730am saw that it was flat and calm all the way out past heads and decided to go troll for and see if the bonito were still between west head and barrenjoey.
Upped anchor - hit 50kmh on way to West Head...laid out three 6in pakula skirts and a metal head skirt....trolled out past Barrenjoey with no hits, saw some bird action out wider and kept going toward them - the birds were working a big school. Seas were a bit higher than 1m, winds gusting but all ok. Got to 100m from the birds when my trusty 200hp Merc stopped DEAD ! It would kick over but just would not fire.
So after 10min of trying to coax the 200 to life without success fired up the 15hp Aux and came back in to calmer water and on to Flint and Steel. We anchored there and while I tried to diagnose what was happening with the Merc, my mates pulled up an octpus, a trevally, a couple of squire and that was about it. I had pretty much lost my fishing mojo for the day.
We called it stumps at 2pm and returned to Parsely Bay still on the 15hp.
So no bonito for me....and as I said a very mixed day...having experienced my first engine breakdown on the water since 1986.
PS - a boat pulled up to see if we needed help while at Flint and Steel and my mates advised we were ok - I had my head under the back seat checking the fuel filter at the time so didn't get to see who it was - But a big THANKS for checking on us who ever it was.
Cheers
Zoran
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Hope so .... I have two
foolsfishos that have just reconfimed they are still going out with me tomorrow ... !!!Hope to be posting a positive report on Sunday !
Cheers Z
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Thanks mate.... had her built in 2001 by a local company.... added a few things like the HPDE skids but she's still running original springs, axles, disc rotors etc.. a bit of care after each trip and some maintenance goes a long way. Cheers Zoran
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11 hours ago, Captain Spanner said:
You will love that boat. I carry a couple of spare rollers and spare split pins. I have been caught out a couple of times when we have gone to pull the boat out and noticed one of the wobble rollers missing. I used to gaffa tape a towel around the arm with the missing roller so we weren't standard i the water but now I just have spares. We have also fitted solid plastic bumpers either side of the first keel roller on the rear cross member. So if you come in slightly askew driving onto the trailer the bow hits plastic not a gal bracket. Then you can spend less time fibreglassing on Sunday afternoons.
As I often have friends bringing the boat to the trailer I went the whole hog and covered everything in that area with HPDE skids... I can attest that it has reduced the need for fiber glassing ... Cheers Zoran
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4 hours ago, TheFoosh said:
The telltale will always run cold if cold water is going in. Desn't most of the cooling water get expelled via the exhaust and through the prop? That water should be warmer.
Edited my response to add more clarity as last response was bashed out on iphone screen and may have been abrupt:
The telltale does not always run cold on my 200hp merc or 15hp mariner. Telltale water is cold at start and goes warm/hot. My mechanic told me that it goes warm when the thermostats have opened. I flush for 10+ min after telltale goes warm. I use muffs + my silencer gizmo and fresh water input.
Most things in chemistry are driven by a gradient. Ie. The bigger the difference between the materials the faster they combine to reach equilibrium. So as you flush there is less and less salt in the motor. To get as much of that last bit of salt out you need as fresh water as possible. In the ideal world we’d be flushing with demineralized water - as that water has no soluble loading at all.
If someone buys me a few beers I’ll go back to my Chem Eng textbooks and dig up the salt (NaCl) in water solubility curves at various temperatures.
The underlying principles are that water can only carry so much dissolved salt before it reaches a saturation point at which it will not be able to absorb any more salt. As you approach that saturation point it will take longer and longer to dissolve salt as there is less gradient (difference) driving it. Heat will help reach the saturation point sooner.
So if you are flushing with a bucket - the results will be better if its a big bucket - the more water - the more salt you can dissolve - the more dilute the water is the bigger the gradient to get the last salt dissolved etc.
Or alternatively, do a bucket flush...then finish off with a short run on muffs and clean water.
Cheers
Zoran
Repower 6.2m Fiberglass Hull
in Boating
Posted
Hey Guys,
Just to answer some of the question...I am running a 19 pitch prop now with the 1999 200HP Merc.
Regarding the use of the Aux: Oct 21st I was 3km of Barrenjoey trolling toward some diving birds when the 200HP stopped. No cough no splutter just dropped revs and stopped. It would kick over but would not start. We came back to Parsley Bay on the 15HP Aux. It is the one and only time I have broken down with the Merc in the 18yrs since putting it on and it is my first on water break down since 1986. Diagnosis was that the 200HP flywheel had loosened and spun which threw all the timing out. The mechanic said this is the first such case he has ever seen in 50yrs of servicing motors ..and I said...if its so rare - why me? But all jokes aside it happened. This is the first time I had to use the Aux due to breakdown .. however, we often use the 15HP to troll when we are out wide. Its a 4St and pushes the Haines along at 9-12kmh which is enough to get plenty of lure action on about 3-4L/hr of fuel or less.
Regarding water bladder - its handy when you overnight and we still do that occasionally. It is also a great counterbalance when at rest or trolling (not on plane), lets face it, I often have 3 crew standing abreast fishing off the stern. The boats rated for 7 pax, we often fish 3-4... so its like having someone standing at the front keeping the bow down. Personally I don't see getting rid of it it as a big game changer in my motor selection.
PaddyT - the 150HP 4St Merc stats I posted were with a 6M CBS Huntsman fibreglass hull.. not a 5.7m Alloy hull. But then again, I think its would be more a weight/length hull design thing than hull construction material.
Everything said regarding revs and power ties in to the rules of thumb that boaties are used to and have used for years - but as I said earlier -- There is something going on with the new gen motors thats putting the torque way down low in the RPM range.
Regarding 4St : All 4St motors develop power on every 4th stroke of the cyl. Merc have split from the 4St pack with their 150HP 4st... they have gone for more cubes (3L block) a single cam (less moving parts= less loss) and a bigger bore - essentially throwing more metal around to develop low end torque coupled with reworked prop design. (All the other 150HP 4St are 2.5L blocks, twin cams relying on revs to develop the torque - conventional approach for cars and bikes.) So I can start to see why some manufacturers 150HP 4St may struggle pushing a weighty hull from rest - and yes then the fix for that motor would be to go down in size on prop pitch etc.
Regarding 2St: Evinrude eTec have gone for an approach of keeping the powerful basics of a two stroke design (develop power on every 2nd stroke which is where you get the power to weight advantage of 2St over 4St), but redesigning everything else using hi tech - the fuel injection, fuel mix, lubrication. Imagine going back to the 2St drawing board and taking all the good things about a 2St and fixing all the bad. Seems revolutionary, but the hi tech that is used is not science fiction stuff its what is already available in the motor industry but packaged for marine use - the only downside seems its just Evinrude on their own.
Anyway, for me its all a very interesting debate... I'm keeping an open mind as my 200HP is thumping along and again purring (growling) like big cat. After 18yrs its got near perfect compression and heaps of spark etc. So I am not desperate to change it this season but I will keep an eye on the developments -- and keep in touch with the contacts I have established in both the 4St and G2 camps. So if anyone else has a 150hp on their 6m hull - please PM me.
BTW - here is an interesting video - it is from the eTech camp...so take it with a grain of salt but if anyone has other research please post. It's clear we are all passionate about our boating !!
Cheers
Zoran