Repower of Haines 635L with Mercury 150HP ProXS 4Stroke

[zmk1962]

Hey Raiders,

To cut a long story short, I pretty much did the unthinkable: I moved from a Mercury 200HP EFI XL 2.5L 2stroke  to a Mercury 150HP ProXS XL 3.0L 4stroke ..   Whaaaaaa ! ... and here's the goods for those that may be interested. But first a picture of the Black Beast  that replaced  Black Beauty !

I mentioned in a post a few weeks back that I was moving to repower my trusty Haines 635L.  The Merc 200HP EFI had been great and reliable but was getting a little too thirsty for the long shelf runs we were doing more often. But like some of you have found the move from a 2st large thumper presented so many choices and considerations that it was just freaking daunting: stick with 2st trusted torque, move to 4stroke but increase HP or at least stay the same, what about the added weight etc etc etc.

I spent a lot of time researching and talking to Raiders, mechanics, dealers etc which helped me clarify what the main repower concerns and considerations were, and all this helped focus my research to ensure I had these items covered off before the big deci$ion. I posted some of my research in @Scienceman's topic recently where I mentioned that when repowering we should be considering the effective torque the motor was generating across the RPM range more than the single HP rating the motor had been assigned. Infact we should first understand what type of boating we planned to do (fishing, waterskiing etc) and then based on that requirement evaluate the torque a motor was generating in the RPM range that was critical to that style of boating:

1. idle to plane (hole shot): motor 700-2500rpm

2. Plane to midrange (ride the wave): motor 2000-3000rpm.

3. mid range: (economical offshore cruising) motor 3000-4000rpm:

4. top end: motor 4000-red line (typically 5800-6000 rpm) 

In my case, being mainly an offshore fisho - performance in the hole shot, ride the wave and economical cruising RPM ranges was of MOST importance. Which meant the motor I chose HAD to deliver sufficient torque to spin a prop pitch that gave me the best speed/efficiency performance in those RPM ranges.

Anyway, putting all that theory aside, the proof is when the "rubber hits the road" or "the prop hits the water". So having just completed the maiden sea trials (3.3hrs out of 8hr run-in procedure) I'll start by sharing the specifications and the stats.

The new motor is a Mercury 150HP ProXS XL 3.0L 4st fitted with a 14.5in 17p Enertia propeller. The ProXS has a 2.08:1 gear box, a WOT of 6000rpm (200rpm and 5-8% more torque than standard 150HP).

Here's the Haines 635L data: Length: 6.35m Beam 2.4m

Heres the weight on water showing the 200HP and the 150HP 4st

The maiden voyage had all the above except for the fishing gear (rods, rigs, lures, bait etc) - the fuel tank was full 240L, full water, 2 onboard, bait board and all other gear were on  board laying at the rear of the cockpit floor.  

The run-in procedure for the 4st required the motor to be operated at varied RPM, 3500-4500rpm and no more than 1min at WOT out of every 10min over the first 2hrs. It took us about 20min to cruise out to where we could do a hole shot. Here's the first hole shot (first time motor went to 3500 and above):

Hole shot 4sec. 3500rpm 41kmh .... not bad from a very tight yet to be run-in 4st pushing1922kg and dragging the swim ladder (doh) !!!

For comparison, here is a similar video of the 1999 Mercury 200HP EFI XL spinning a Vengeance 14in 19p prop taken a few weeks ago heading out to Browns - this is a 2st motor that has perfect compression (and 21yrs of running-in).

200HP Hole shot - identical to the 150HP 4st ..... I think that should lay to rest that 4strokes do not have the torque of a 2stroke ...

The maiden run was a 64km round trip from Ermington to Roseville via Middle Harbour,  Sydney Heads etc So a mixture of smooth estuary water to very choppy harbour open water conditions.

After 1.5hrs at 3500-4500 (occasional spurt to 5000) traveling up Syd Harbour to past Spit Bridge it was time to test WOT. 

We didn't quite reach WOT 6000rpm -- recorded 5820rpm 70kmh before encountering water traffic and running out of waterway. Here's the vessel view stats:

So my summary observations:

Hole shot: 4 Seconds smooth and powerful. As I incremented the speed 1000-2500-3000-3500 etc it had torque punch that put you in the back of the seat up to 5200rpm. 5500 onward it lost the punch and was just a steady pickup in speed.  the Merc 150HP is a torque beast !!!!….. Ploughing through the chop around middle head I did not have to play with the throttle or trim just set the RPM and it held speed.

3200 35kmh

4000 43kmh

4500 51kmh.

5500 66kmh 

5820 70kmh.

Fuel consumption: mid range cruising speed across Harbour chop at  3200-4500rpm  35-51km/h  vessel view was reporting 1.5km/L  (or 0.67L/km), trolling speeds 12km/h 2.6km/L (or 0.38L/km). 

For comparison: heres the 200HP EFI 2st data which I have posted at various times on FR previously.

3200 30

4000 45

4200 55

5200 75

5800 80+

Average offshore trip of 100km used 135L :  0.74km/L (or 1.35L/km)

So on current data on a 100km round trip to Browns I will see 100% fuel efficiency improvement and maintain the same speeds.

So to say I am happy with the above results would be an understatement - I am freaking ecstatic !!

Hope this helps some one else with their analysis.

Cheers Zoran 

("HP sells boats/motors, but it's torque that actually moves them")

 

PS -

Some of you may know that I was in no rush to repower and started my research back in 2017 with a post in this boating forum ("Repower 6.2m Fiberglass Hull").  I had a hunch that something had happened in the industry - which was changing the traditional rules of thumb we used to power our boats.  It looks like that hunch was correct, in the background manufacturers had been working on technologies that brought the torque down into the lower RPM range and kept it flatter for a longer RPM range. Evinrude did it with their Direct Injection technology, Merc did it with their reworked bottom up marine 4stroke tech. 

Below is a chart that I found that showed the Standard  Merc 150HP 4st crank torque vs RPM curve (the ProXS model has 5-8% more).  It's virtually flat from 1500-5000rpm -  right in the range that boaters need - and I can now validate it puts you in the back of the seat right through that range.  

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by zmk1962
added merc prop specification

[Welster]

It sounds like you got the good result you deserved for the effort and thought you put in.   Well done Zoran 

[noelm]

I have said many times (and got roasted for it) that the old more torque with a 2 stroke business is dead and gone, modern 4 strokes have a much smoother torque "band" and this is especially evident when "cruising" the throttle can be more or less just set and the boat will maintain a very constant speed, this is great on long trips home from the shelf, older 2 strokes would die off on the back of a swell, needing throttle, they would speed up, hit their power band and take off, requiring backing off again, after a couple of hours, it gets very tiring. Great report, I like to see "real world" owners stuff, rather than rehashing internet myth and magazine paid advertising telling us how fabulous something is.

[JonD]

Fantastic result and a dead sexy looking motor, no wonder these are becoming so popular. I know some guys who put the same engine on their 5.2 sea devil and because of the hull size and weight they are achieving around 2.5km per lt at 55-60kh.

[Rey05]

congrats, the most important part of the process is that you are happy with the outcome, there is nothing worse than buyer remorse. 

 

 

[New Signing]

Once you go four stroke you never go back

[GoingFishing]

Great work Zoran. You did the hard yards and now you reap the rewards. 

Very impressive stats considering 50HP drop !!

[wrxhoon1]

Good work Zoran, that should give you many years of reliable boating, enjoy

 

 

[kingie chaser]

Wow, thats a lot of info!

 

So long story short you getting nearly the same amount output & saving more fuel out of a 50HP less motor than you used to own?

[Fishop]

Do you think you will drop a prop pitch considering you were not fully loaded and didnt quite make it to 6000rpm?

Also, cant believe your old 21 year old 200hp is still 31kg lighter! 

[zmk1962]

27 minutes ago, Fishop said:

Do you think you will drop a prop pitch considering you were not fully loaded and didnt quite make it to 6000rpm?

Also, cant believe your old 21 year old 200hp is still 31kg lighter! 

Nope staying wit the 17p. I had negotiated prop swaps in the purchase price. There was a box of beer on the table: mech and his team backing 16p, me 17p. They have conceded victory to the 17p - their comment being the motor had only done 1.8hrs by that time ... in their experience it will open up and shoot past the 6000rpm with ease. Already on the way back home I could feel the motor punching harder in throttle shifts. 

Regarding being fully loaded. On the 200HP run, it was Maria and I plus fishing gear. Maria is a good 30kg lighter than Wayno whose voice you can hear in the 150HP videos. So really there was a 20kg difference between the 200hp and 150hp hole shots tests... hardly worth worrying about... If it was that sensitive, I'd just carry 30L of fresh water instead of the 50L taken now.

Regarding motor weights: actually 22kg difference.  The 200hp is 175kg plus the 9kg 2stroke oil reservoir. So 184kg  vs 150HP 206kg.

Cheers Z

[zmk1962]

19 hours ago, kingie chaser said:

Wow, thats a lot of info!

So long story short you getting nearly the same amount output & saving more fuel out of a 50HP less motor than you used to own?

Pretty much sums it up.  But if I'd just said that ... I'd run the risk of it been read as an unsubstantiated claim and me being labelled a black motor bigot.  Hahaha.  Now at least the many, many, many reported facts speak for them selves.

Cheers Z

Edited July 2, 2020 by zmk1962

[zmk1962]

4 hours ago, wrxhoon1 said:

Good work Zoran, that should give you many years of reliable boating, enjoy

Thanks Jerry .... you gave me a lot of homework in our PM exchanges !!!  much appreciated. Look forward to that tag team out wide.

Cheers Z

 

[zmk1962]

7 hours ago, GoingFishing said:

Great work Zoran. You did the hard yards and now you reap the rewards. 

Very impressive stats considering 50HP drop !!

Hey Thanks Sam. 

In some way the stats show that in giving away the 50HP I lost the top end speed above 70kmh (something I never used). Below that the 150hp 4stroke pretty well matched the 200HP 2stroke in the amount of torque it produced to spin the prop. In fact, it had more torque earlier and it was smoother. The 200HP had a torque peak around 4000rpm (spinning the 19p meant I was at 45kmh), if the conditions didn't allow me to do that, and I reduced RPM to say 3000rpm 30kmh, I found the torque dropped off, prop slowed down and I lost speed, the stern started to drag, so I'd have to throttle up and ease off and throttle up ease off. I was always using trim/throttle to keep the stern up at the lower cruising speeds.  Also in hole shot with the 200HP I had to trim the motor in to create more lift (it just didn't have the torque at the low RPM) and then level out as we started to plane - you can see that in the 200HP video.

That difference in RPM when the torque kicked in was the first thing I noticed with the 150hp - once I had trimmed the boat to optimum plane I just had to control RPM for speed - I actually made the comment "I haven't played with trim" in the WOT video.

Cheers Z

[zmk1962]

9 hours ago, noelm said:

I have said many times (and got roasted for it) that the old more torque with a 2 stroke business is dead and gone, modern 4 strokes have a much smoother torque "band" and this is especially evident when "cruising" the throttle can be more or less just set and the boat will maintain a very constant speed, this is great on long trips home from the shelf, older 2 strokes would die off on the back of a swell, needing throttle, they would speed up, hit their power band and take off, requiring backing off again, after a couple of hours, it gets very tiring. Great report, I like to see "real world" owners stuff, rather than rehashing internet myth and magazine paid advertising telling us how fabulous something is.

Thanks Noel... I too like to see real world stuff. I have no axe to grind, I'm not a dealer, I'm just sharing my experiences and if there is an opportunity I'm happy to take Raiders on a ride on Barrycuda. 

I would make one qualification to your statement "the old more torque with a 2 stroke business is dead and gone, modern 4 strokes have a much smoother torque "band"".  In my experience your statement definitely applies to older carburettor and EFI 2 strokes but the data doesn't support that view for motors like the ETEC. 

Heres an ETEC G1 comparison to the Standard Merc150HP 4st  - this is vintage 2013 data.

Look at blue G1 curve. It catches up with the Merc at 2200rpm and by 2500 planing RPM delivers a torque curve some 20% higher than the Merc but pretty much flat and even, just like the Merc. In that 2200 - 5000RPM range that's all useable, consistent torque for us boaties. They have definitely ironed out that old 2stroke peaky torque behaviour.

So I'd have to exclude the DI tech engines from your comment.  Sadly BRP is not playing this game anymore, so we have all lost someone to keep the 4stroke guys honest and innovating.

Cheers Zoran

PS. I was seriously considering the 150HP G2 and the Merc 150HP 4st. Clearly both of these 150hp motors would have worked on my boat....but the nearest Evinrude dealer to my place is 20km away, and I have 3 Merc dealers within 10km with closes at 4.7km.  That was a major decision to focus on the Merc even prior to the BRP announcement.

 

Edited July 2, 2020 by zmk1962

[zmk1962]

7 hours ago, New Signing said:

Once you go four stroke you never go back

Well there are fewer options left these days for sure. But at the risk of creating a lot of discussion, I also have to say that not all 4strokes are the same and you have to do your homework based on your boating style and requirements. I firmly believe that my 200HP 2st to 150HP 4st worked because of the specific 4stroke motor I chose.

I make that conclusion based on my research, where even way back in 2017 I explored repowering a 6m FG hull with a 150HP - regardless of 2st or 4st technology .... and by and large I was shouted down that I won't find examples as no one was doing that - especially with a 150HP 4stroke. 

Well as it turns out I found many many many examples of 150HP outboards successfully running 6m+ FG hulls all around the world: Australia (WA, Vic, Bris), Germany, USA etc.  Going back to 2012. Some were dealer demos (taken with a grain of salt), but some were owner repowers. 

But all these examples had two things in common, they were either a 150hp G1 G2 or Merc 150hp 4st.  Go figure. I could not find examples of other 150HP makes running 6m FG hulls. Begs the question of why were the dealers confident to put their names against the 6m FG Merc 150HP combo, and why were the private owners putting their money on the table for repowers. This took me down the path of understanding the underlying technology of those specific motors.

I'll list a few examples below - they do mention business names  - if the mentors have to delete or cull the list then just PM me and I'll share via PM.

Carribean Reef Runner (6.2m, 1800kg hull, repowered in 2012)

https://img.boatdeckcrm.com.au/media/8898ec7ef787d6fe3e4ff16f0cb459a51f1626283a1b246847c6981fd22ebea6/1408-Repower-bulletin-150-fourstroke-caribbean.pdf

Revival 640 (6.4m, 1800kg dealers own boat - I spoke to him on the phone as well as the interviewer)

Quicksilver Active  (6.45m, 1360kg dry hull weight, with 6 pax on board) Germany

In Australia you'll find Arvour fits the 150HP to their 675m !!!!

And on it goes.... 

My conclusion was not all 4strokes are the same. 

Cheers Zoran

 

 

 

 

 

[GoingFishing]

1 hour ago, zmk1962 said:

Thanks Noel... I too like to see real world stuff. I have no axe to grind, I'm not a dealer, I'm just sharing my experiences and if there is an opportunity I'm happy to take Raiders on a ride on Barrycuda. 

I would make one qualification to your statement "the old more torque with a 2 stroke business is dead and gone, modern 4 strokes have a much smoother torque "band"".  In my experience your statement definitely applies to older carburettor and EFI 2 strokes but the data doesn't support that view for motors like the ETEC. 

Heres an ETEC G1 comparison to the Standard Merc150HP 4st  - this is vintage 2013 data.

Look at blue G1 curve. It catches up with the Merc at 2200rpm and by 2500 planing RPM delivers a torque curve some 20% higher than the Merc but pretty much flat and even, just like the Merc. In that 2200 - 5000RPM range that's all useable, consistent torque for us boaties. They have definitely ironed out that old 2stroke peaky torque behaviour.

So I'd have to exclude the DI tech engines from your comment.  Sadly BRP is not playing this game anymore, so we have all lost someone to keep the 4stroke guys honest and innovating.

Cheers Zoran

PS. I was seriously considering the 150HP G2 and the Merc 150HP 4st. Clearly both of these 150hp motors would have worked on my boat....but the nearest Evinrude dealer to my place is 20km away, and I have 3 Merc dealers within 10km with closes at 4.7km.  That was a major decision to focus on the Merc even prior to the BRP announcement.

 

Zoran, clearly you have done a tremendous amount of research, have collated the relevant anecdotal data and put the theory to the test. You have proven the theory by all accounts, the proof is in the pudding. There is no argueing or hypothesizing !!!

Thanks for being unbiased and fair in your assessment. And your right, not all 4 strokes are the same.

Fun fact - the graph you posted above is a comparison between the G1 Etec and the Merc. (duh)

As a G2 owner, and having test driven both the G1 & G2 150HP models, i can personally tell you that the G2 is just on another level in terms of performance, the torque on a G2 could perhaps be circa 30% or more than the merc.

Anyway - Happy boating mate, you have to be ecstatic with the results, most fishos would have been sold done the garden path and replaced the 200HP 2 stroke with a 200HP 4 stroke or even bigger to "compensate". Your at the front of the herd for sure !!

Edited July 2, 2020 by GoingFishing

[jeffb5.8]

Hi Mate

Do you notice if its quieter than the old 200hp 2Stroke?

[GoingFishing]

2 hours ago, jeffb5.8 said:

Hi Mate

Do you notice if its quieter than the old 200hp 2Stroke?

20 year old 2 stroke tech vs 2020 merc 4 stroke and your asking if its quieter.......   LOL

Are you........fishing??

Edited July 2, 2020 by GoingFishing

[dunc333]

great to see mate and  z has joined the merc 4stroke club .clean fuel and alot less fuel  will be needed now .i hope trouble free motoring for along time mate my merc looked after, as good boat owners do ,has never let me down cheers dunc333

[jeffb5.8]

5 hours ago, GoingFishing said:

20 year old 2 stroke tech vs 2020 merc 4 stroke and your asking if its quieter.......   LOL

Yep I’m fishing 

I went from a 2001 2 stroke to a 2016 Etec and there was very little difference in the noise output, still have to yell across the boat.

so I was interested in knowing if there was a significant drop in outboard noise or just a little cause it all adds to the comfort of long drives in a boat.

[Guest Guest123456789]

Thank you Zoran for a fantastic post. I learnt a lot from it. Torque is something I never really considered, particularly even torque.

i love it when someone looks beyond branding and relies on primary research and data to find the best value product that meets requirements. Your post highlights how much power buyers have these days.

Out of interest did you assess reliability and lifespan as a requirement? I have heard anecdotally other motors (chiefly the Yamaha) have an advantage in this area. Or is that marketing fluff?

[noelm]

Most engine "stuff" is internet hype and old wives tales, there is no motor brand that traditionally lasts longer than the others, most makers have produced a certain model that has an undesirable "feature" but, in the main they are all good. When buying a certain HP, you need to research that model, not just general info, but, specific to that HP you're interested in, certain brands are better than the others for different boats. Lots simply fight for their favourite brand without looking at what a motor is going to be used for, some models are very heavy in certain HP, some have more cylinders than others, different gear cases, different controls, all sorts of stuff needs to be looked at.

[zmk1962]

12 hours ago, jeffb5.8 said:

Hi Mate

Do you notice if its quieter than the old 200hp 2Stroke?

Hi Jeff.
I had named the trip to and from Browns the “long loud silence” - hahaha - we just could not talk over the 200.

The videos I have posted above pretty well show it is quieter- especially in the main operating range 3500-4500.  We filmed on iPhones which have directional mics so facing the motor records louder - so take note of the motor noise when the camera is facing away. 

At Idle and troll it was virtually silent. When I walked back from parking the trailer I had to ask if the motor was on  

Also flushing with the exhaust out of water it was as loud as my cruiser idling. 

The area where I flush is a soundbox - 2 brick walls and a colour bond fence - 82db. 
 

cheers Zoran 

[zmk1962]

12 hours ago, dunc333 said:

great to see mate and  z has joined the merc 4stroke club .clean fuel and alot less fuel  will be needed now .i hope trouble free motoring for along time mate my merc looked after, as good boat owners do ,has never let me down cheers dunc333

Thanks mate. Actually I stay in the Merc club and join the 4stroke chapter!

cheers Z